Massive anti war demo

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Wednesday 25 September 2002 4.23pm
Saturday 28th 1pm Embankment to Hyde park. Gather for what is building up to be the biggest antiwar demo in British history to protest about plans to attack Iraq.

(The second link below describes the US military's systematic destruction of the Iraqi water supply during the last gulf war in contravention of the 4th Geneva convention prohibiting the targeting of civilians, as a taster for what we are trying to prevent.)
Wednesday 25 September 2002 4.30pm
Definitely do not like the idea of war... I'd be interested in hearing what the alternatives are to getting Sadam Hussein to be a little more co-operative with the secuirty council.

Thursday 26 September 2002 1.15am
Yes Nick I come down on the against war side too, but how else can we keep oil prices down except by controling Iraq ? Think how quickly things went pear shaped during the fuel protest.

I guess that the US has tried buying out Saddam and he refused since

1 He already has the best kind of telly he can get
2 He is power mad and actually wants to run his own country

The problem as my friend explained it tonight is that Saddam is choosing hegemony over survival whereas the Americans are doing the same but winning.

I also come down on the anti killing of civilians side of this debate but in military terms my opinion does not really matter. Civilians get killed all the time and even in a peaceful society human life has a limited value.

During the current Afghan war someone asked

Q why an Afghan life was worth less than an American life ?

Well I think you can can give a answer to that

A Because America has a higher GDP and better weapons technology

Okay can you agree to this agenda ?
stop the war
develop a way to neutralise all weapons of mass destruction
stop sponsoring the arts and put the funds into foreign aid

help people distinguish between bad hunting by Posh people and good hunting by the the Aborigine people or the Inuit Whale.........oh dear

this post has gone completley wrong

what was this discussion about ?

All the best

Thursday 26 September 2002 2.58pm
Yes, all war is political motivated but war in itself is not a bad thing. I agree that Bush has an agenda - he'd lose the Congressional elections otherwise.

I'd like to see the terrorist threat neutalised. I have no problem with Pax Americana - it's only a muscular extension of our own hegemony 100 years ago.

Sometimes, the pretenders need to be told who's boss. Let's get on with it (as Churchill said to Neville Chamberlin!).

No doubt, my views will come as no surprise to you all - just don't choke on your chardonay, lovvies...
Friday 27 September 2002 5.32pm
"War in itself is not a bad thing" - that was tongue-in-cheek, right, Tom, you know, to provoke a reaction and all? Death, destruction, bereavement, frequently by people who really don't want to be there, or necessarily believe in their cause (on both side) - no - that can't be a bad thing can it?

The whole Bush administration has an agenda, both political and economic. I mean if Cheney's shareholdings in Halliburton don't oblige him to be a complete hawk on war, I don't know what does. I don't even want to go into the whole oil price manipulation story, questioning how much worse the Iraq admin is vs. Iran, S. Arabia, Mozambique, etc..... and, timing wise - did this really only become an issue in the last 12 months? The who Republican news manipulation over Kuwait was something else - much better documented by Michael Moore than I could possibly do. There was a interesting article in last week's Spectator over the man-on-the-street's view in Iraq over the US/UK intervention in their domestic politics.

Personally, and probably more importantly - I find the whole issue of pre-emptive strikes a very dangerous precedent in the nature of international law. Yes - I appreciate that means we could potentially be nuked before we find out - and that means that quite a few of us could croak it - but I think could be the price of living by rules of engagement.... I'd also question - is he really going to do this - he's clearly a tyrant, but I doubt he's so stupid not to understand that the the nuclear powers would launch 1/3 of their capacity on him within minutes. As we all know, he's had chemical and bio weapons since pre 85.... [and where did he get the expertise to make such devices... no prizes]

Its a tricky one, and an interesting one as everyone has a valid opinion on the matter as it could affect us all. My personal view would be to continue pressing for inspections, and pursue a UN resolution if that was obstructed. The task should then be disarmament, not regime change.

I just hope that we don't have to suffer like we did in the 80s when the CIA took out Yvonne Fletcher in order to persuade Thatcher to let US aircraft use the UK as a platform for attacks on Libya.
Monday 30 September 2002 9.28am
who was Yvonne Fletcher? Wasn't she that PC who was shot in Grosvenor Sq? You have my interest tickled. Sounds like a classic conspiracy theory

Regarding my comment about war itself not being a bad thing - hoped to emphasize total pacificism can be as dangerous as total belligerence. If we had listened to Halifax rather than Churchill in 1939, we'd all be goose-stepping to Wagner. Agreed - war is a horrid affair but the combination of diplomacy and force can be very persuasive. Personally, I think Bush is calling Iraq's bluff - he's not bothered one way or the other, Iraq knows this and is backing down asap!! Just watch - we'll get a UN resolution backed up by the Pacific and Indian Ocean fleets and Saddam will let the inspectors back in. If he didn't think Bush and Blair were serious, then he'd just string the UN along..
Monday 30 September 2002 12.20pm
churchil opened fire on the miners on strike i was told by my auntie..was she correct?
Monday 30 September 2002 12.49pm
Churchill was chancellor of the exchequer at the time (and not a very good one at that) so I doubt he was directly implicated.
Tuesday 1 October 2002 3.56pm

Great demo wasn't it!

Churchill is usually credited with using the army to break the general strike.

Also when Britain was granted the Iraqi mandate after the first world war Churchill was in no doubt that gas could be profitably employed against the Kurds and Iraqis (as well as against other peoples in the Empire) as the following quote illustrates : "I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes." see and elsewhere for details
Tuesday 1 October 2002 5.08pm
Yep Tom, Yvonne Fletcher was the WPC shot in St. James's Square as she was policing the anti-Libyan demos there. Thing was, a lot of work and analysis shows the angle in which the bullet entered her body meant that it didn't come from the second floor window (part of the Libyan embassy), but the third or fourth floor [the bullet entered her body on the top left and left through her right thigh as I recall]. Interesting, those offices were rented at that time by... according to a C4 documentary - a front organisation for the CIA that was listening in to what was happening in the embassy below.

Analysis for the rifle sounds taken from the footage of the event reveals that there were in fact two different weapons involved - one was clearly the distinctive rifle (not sure if it was an AK) used out of the Libyan window fired over the crowd. The other was a different weapon - again, I don't remember the type, but the point that was made was that there was clearly more than one shooter.

C4 did a great documentary on it a few years ago, and Sir Teddy Taylor seems to know something about what happened that fateful day too (he featured in it). I'm sure its been written up on the web somewhere, and the analysis of the coroner's report is fascinating - the position she would have had to have been in for the bullet to have come from the Libyan embassy was unfeasible - they did a computer rendering of it on the programme.
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