SE 1........Used To Be Brilliant....

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Wednesday 5 April 2006 2.21pm
i've lived in SE1 all my life and I think the regeneration of se1and the river front and docklands - although se16 -has been great for the area and the people that live here. As Niall said most of the buildings now turned into homes shops and offices were derelict and have now been made into homes and communities . I believe the area has a lot of "soul" and this web site goes towards proving this.

you said you grew up in se1 Jack-do i take it you do not live here anymore?
Wednesday 5 April 2006 2.21pm
garethpmorgan wrote:
Jack Carter wrote:
carmenes82 wrote:
You miss the point Jack, people like me and the majority of people on this board live/want to live in SE1 because it has soul, a community, etc. I could have lived in any of the other places you mentioned, but didn't want to because I like the fact that in Bermondsey there is a mixture of people, I know my neighbour and the pretention (as you call it) is confined to only a small part of SE1.

People move into these areas cos it has soul, then push the real locals out, and it becomes just another cold soulless pretentious area. The same has happened to many other places

Bermondsey DOESNT have soul anymore.........it did, up to about 4-5 years ago, but gentrification, multi-culturalism and displacement have ruined the area.

So what you're saying is that one of the things that has destroyed the Bermondsey that you used to know and love is "multi-culturalism", is that correct?

If that's the case then I think the "alright if it's all white" Bermondsey you're alluding to is best left in history or down the New Den.

In fact if multi-culturalism isn't a thing you like, I'm surprised you still live in London at all. Whilst I have sympathy with some aspects of your argument, I don't with this one.

I'm sure that Bermondsey did have a good traditional working class sense of community about it years ago, and the arrival of money in the area has caused issues and difficulties and displacement, but I think you have to go beyond what has happened to why it has happened, and there are many underlying economic reasons, and many of these have actually benefitted the area including regeneration of significant areas of SE1 which were either derelict warehouses or areas in poor condition.

This is clearly challenging and I for one agree that there isn't the same sense of community, but where is there?

Incidentally I don't for one minute believe that anyone living in nice apartment blocks in SE1 believes they're living "in da ghetto" and you risk stereo-typing what is a huge range of different people.

I agree with what you say, society is changing, and there is nothing you, me or anyone can do about it

As for your comments on multi-culturalism, well, that's your opinion.

All i've got to say is that not one white working class person i have ever met has liked a multi-cultural society. That is why white flight is such a big thing here.

We live in it, you don't. We work in it, our kids go to school in it..............it's a bit different to just living here. You can't appreciate the both sides of a multi-cultural society until you live in one, full on, with no 'if it goes pear shaped, i can always move back to Surrey'.
Wednesday 5 April 2006 2.21pm
Jack Carter wrote:
JGarcia wrote:
Ah, your true colours Shine through Jack, what you're really ranting about is that Bermondsey is now full of 'multi-culturalism' - by which I take it that you mean non white people, and you state that this is a negative factor.
Of course, everyone would love to back to how London (SE1) used to be in the 'good old days' - meat-headed blokes with short hair, fighting pit-bull dogs, no education, a bigoted view of the world, a general hatred of everything, no money, poor housing etc. Sounds great... ?

What your rant is really about is about being jealous of the new wealth, open minded attitudes, a mixed community that welcomes outsiders and 'locals' alike and people who want to live in nice surroundings and be positive about their lives.

Your view is so common in areas like this, it is fueled by hatred. How anyone can argue that gentrification (this is a positive word, it means nicer surroundings) is bad is clearly missing the point. Also, everything is seen as negative, because you feel hard done by in some way and seek to blame outside forces rather than yourself or your views.

I happen to be new to the area (I'm white by the way, just in case you wondered) and moved in to Bermondsey 3 years ago. I live in a lovely street that has a mixture of 'old' and 'new' in it, black and white, I know all my neighbours and they fully accept me in to their community with no issues, as we do to newer people who have moved in.

Funny how you call me bigoted yet make bigoted generalisations of the people that used to live in the area?!?!?

Mr Trevor Phillips even admited that multi-culturalism is a bad thing.....does that make him a racist?

It is just too easy for narrow minded people like you to label people like me as uneducated bigoted morons...........instead of actually thinking that we may have a point.

Yes i am against multi-culturalism, because it doesnt work. People like you can move in, and from behind your gated communites, say, 'i live in Bermondsey, i know what it's like', no you don't.

I expected a bigoted, narrow midned reply like yours, so it's water off a duck's back.

As for gentrification means nicer surroundings............lol................maybe you are the one who needs an education!

I think you mis-quote Mr Phillips. What he said back in 2004 was that multi-culturalism was a bad term because it suggested "seperated-ness" but that we had moved beyond that which he recognised as a good thing.

What you seem to be advocating is something quite different.
Wednesday 5 April 2006 2.21pm
Jack

I'm going to stay away from the multi-cultural thing. If thats your problem then I'm sorry for you.

But lets get back to reality. I've been here for 20+ years (just off Bermondsey St) and I'm still keen to hear from you about the people who were "forced out". Maybe they were forced out by the closure of the docks but that was all about economics on the wider stage, not about some great influx of people coming into the area.

You look around. The cores of housing that were here in the 1970s and before are still here. If anyone left then I'm sure that Thatcher's bung (also known as 'right to buy') probably had a lot to do with it.

I have photographs of Bermondsey St in the 1960s and there isn't any great residential community. The last time there was a residential community on Bermondsey St was around 1910/30. The decline of that community was about the broader economics of inner London. I'd also point out that Southwark's population has declined since 1900 from around 600k to the current 280k. Don't blame recent arrivals for that decline. The fact is that they are reversing the decline and bringing something back to the local economy.

As I said before, where would you prefer to live?

Regards

Niall
Wednesday 5 April 2006 2.23pm
janefs wrote:
Jack,
The generalised rant against 'new' SE1ers is an easy target to hit with such a scatter gun approach. How far back can you trace your own family, were its origins exclusively Bermondsey? I'd be interested to know your definition of someone who deserves to live here. You seem to be suggesting that all 'communities' should be closed shops and never evolve or change, staying stuck in a time warp. If so, why should that point in time be the time that you lived in the area?

Not at all

I accept that society moves on and changes...........

But the way our community and area has bee eroded in such a small space of time is not right, again, something our very liberal M.P agrees with.

Anyone is welcome anywhere, but not to the detriment of the local community
Wednesday 5 April 2006 2.26pm
Jack Carter wrote:
garethpmorgan wrote:
Jack Carter wrote:
carmenes82 wrote:
You miss the point Jack, people like me and the majority of people on this board live/want to live in SE1 because it has soul, a community, etc. I could have lived in any of the other places you mentioned, but didn't want to because I like the fact that in Bermondsey there is a mixture of people, I know my neighbour and the pretention (as you call it) is confined to only a small part of SE1.

People move into these areas cos it has soul, then push the real locals out, and it becomes just another cold soulless pretentious area. The same has happened to many other places

Bermondsey DOESNT have soul anymore.........it did, up to about 4-5 years ago, but gentrification, multi-culturalism and displacement have ruined the area.

So what you're saying is that one of the things that has destroyed the Bermondsey that you used to know and love is "multi-culturalism", is that correct?

If that's the case then I think the "alright if it's all white" Bermondsey you're alluding to is best left in history or down the New Den.

In fact if multi-culturalism isn't a thing you like, I'm surprised you still live in London at all. Whilst I have sympathy with some aspects of your argument, I don't with this one.

I'm sure that Bermondsey did have a good traditional working class sense of community about it years ago, and the arrival of money in the area has caused issues and difficulties and displacement, but I think you have to go beyond what has happened to why it has happened, and there are many underlying economic reasons, and many of these have actually benefitted the area including regeneration of significant areas of SE1 which were either derelict warehouses or areas in poor condition.

This is clearly challenging and I for one agree that there isn't the same sense of community, but where is there?

Incidentally I don't for one minute believe that anyone living in nice apartment blocks in SE1 believes they're living "in da ghetto" and you risk stereo-typing what is a huge range of different people.

I agree with what you say, society is changing, and there is nothing you, me or anyone can do about it

As for your comments on multi-culturalism, well, that's your opinion.

All i've got to say is that not one white working class person i have ever met has liked a multi-cultural society. That is why white flight is such a big thing here.

We live in it, you don't. We work in it, our kids go to school in it..............it's a bit different to just living here. You can't appreciate the both sides of a multi-cultural society until you live in one, full on, with no 'if it goes pear shaped, i can always move back to Surrey'.

There you go again, stereo-typing. Just because my opinion runs contrary to yours doesn't mean that I necessary work for Citibank. I actually work for an organisation rehabilitating offenders in the community which - as you can imagine - deals significantly with working class areas and mixed communities. In my experience one of the biggest factors holding back progress is this kind of typical white working class, hard done by, against change, pseudo or genuine racist attitude.
Wednesday 5 April 2006 2.35pm
dee dee wrote:
i've lived in SE1 all my life and I think the regeneration of se1and the river front and docklands - although se16 -has been great for the area and the people that live here. As Niall said most of the buildings now turned into homes shops and offices were derelict and have now been made into homes and communities . I believe the area has a lot of "soul" and this web site goes towards proving this.
you said you grew up in se1 Jack-do i take it you do not live here anymore?

You would be the first proper local i have ever met in my life to say that the changes have been for the better

I live in Rotherhithe now, another area, formally, full of pride, heart and soul, now, disapearing into yuppy nightmare..........
Wednesday 5 April 2006 2.40pm
Niall Connolly wrote:
Jack
I'm going to stay away from the multi-cultural thing. If thats your problem then I'm sorry for you.

But lets get back to reality. I've been here for 20+ years (just off Bermondsey St) and I'm still keen to hear from you about the people who were "forced out". Maybe they were forced out by the closure of the docks but that was all about economics on the wider stage, not about some great influx of people coming into the area.

You look around. The cores of housing that were here in the 1970s and before are still here. If anyone left then I'm sure that Thatcher's bung (also known as 'right to buy') probably had a lot to do with it.

I have photographs of Bermondsey St in the 1960s and there isn't any great residential community. The last time there was a residential community on Bermondsey St was around 1910/30. The decline of that community was about the broader economics of inner London. I'd also point out that Southwark's population has declined since 1900 from around 600k to the current 280k. Don't blame recent arrivals for that decline. The fact is that they are reversing the decline and bringing something back to the local economy.

As I said before, where would you prefer to live?

Regards

Niall

Points taken.

I was talking about SE1/16 as a whole, not just Bermondsey Street.

If it suddenly became hip to live in the suburbs or the country, the vast majority of outsiders who live in SE would be off like a shot

People only live in my current area, Rotherhithe, cos there is a tube station there.

They have no pride or feeling to the area and the traditions and people of the area they have moved too, summed up by the bigoted anti white working class post by some no mark on this thread

If you really feel like you want to hear from the proper SE1 bods, then you must be ready to hear some uncomfortable things........something which many on here don't want too
Wednesday 5 April 2006 2.43pm
From Jack's lack of detailed knowledge of the historical facts concerning businesses and residential communities in and around Bermondsey Street I can only draw the conclusion that he is not what he professes to be. I doubt that his rants should be taken seriously, he is merely trying to provoke the good natured liberal (small "l") readers of this site.
Wednesday 5 April 2006 2.48pm
Jerry wrote:
From Jack's lack of detailed knowledge of the historical facts concerning businesses and residential communities in and around Bermondsey Street I can only draw the conclusion that he is not what he professes to be. I doubt that his rants should be taken seriously, he is merely trying to provoke the good natured liberal (small "l") readers of this site.

LOL

So i am a liar eh?

Where have i showed a lack of knowledge about SE1.............and how do you judge such a thing? Knowing about Bermondsey in 1893? 1994?

I never said i was from Bermondsey street did i........?

Keep trying to believe we don't exist, close your eyes and we will disapear..........
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