E&C: back to the drawing board?

phil. a developer will not build a huge shopping centre without a large car parking facilities, it will be suicidal, the centre will become a white elephant without it. chain supermarkets are thriving due to provision of this facilities.its a fact of life.

Hi Vally,

I think we might be thinking of different things.

When I think of what the redeveloped E&C shopping centre might be like, I think of the redeveloped Brunswick Centre in Bloomsbury, rather than Westfield or Croydon.

If the Brunswick Centre has a car park, it certainly isn't a big one, yet the developers have created a very pleasant, successful shopping centre. It demonstrably isn't suicidal to build an urban shopping centre without a large car park.

Of course, the suburban and peripheral shopping centres, who's catchment areas are larger and have a large proportion of car owners have to have large car parks, but that's a completely different scale of development.

Yeah, we're talking about a pretty local catchment area for the shopping centre - its not going to be a destination in the way Westfield is.

Did I mention that it has a Waitrose, too? ;¬)

Am I mistaken in thinking that our new "shopping center" is actually going to be the stretch of the Walworth Road from Heygate Street to the E&C Southern Roundabout and will be a shopping STREET rather than a covered "centre". And there will be a new "market" at the back of the Oakmayne Plaza..supposing we live that long.

jackie rokotnitz wrote:

Am I mistaken in thinking that our new "shopping center" is actually going to be the stretch of the Walworth Road from Heygate Street to the E&C Southern Roundabout and will be a shopping STREET rather than a covered "centre". And there will be a new "market" at the back of the Oakmayne Plaza..supposing we live that long.

That's the idea, supposing the current blueprint ever sees the light of day (which there must be some doubt over now).

hi phil. i used to rent a shop unit at the Brunswick shopping centre due to lack of customers the businesses were struggling with high overheads so many left including me. it was then redeveloped to attract more people to the centre in 2006.almost all new shops are now chain stores. still struggling to attract customers from outside other than few tourists and locals ..i also had a shop unit at then thriving lambeth walk shopping centre near lambeth bridge in early 80's. when lambeth council put in severe parking restrictions the centre fell to pieces with many empty shops and just serving local customers.one side of the shopping centre was then demolished to make a way for housing. the shopping centre is now struggling to survive due to lack of customers . proposed new elephant and castle shopping centre will not be able to survive on local catchment area alone. charlie chaplin was a regular visitor to original lambeth walk shops before he became famous,I am going to sing that famous song now... ANY TIME YOUR IN LAMBETH WALK ANY EVENING ANY DAY..........

Thanks for the contribution, vally. Interesting piece of info. re the old Brunswick shopping centre and Lambeth Walk.

However, I think the Elephant is a more viable location than many (even more than the new Brunswick) because it's a massive transport hub. I suspect a similar proposal could work at Vauxhall, but it's over-developed there already, so I think any potential shops will end up being in Nine Elms or Battersea.

There is due to be a greater volume of people (due to new housing and general regeneration) based at the Elephant. Indeed, there will continue to be a huge volume of people passing through the area because of the sheer number of buses that terminate or traverse it. I actually do think a new shopping centre/plaza could thrive on relatively "local" custom because "local people" would come from Elephant, Walworth, Kennington, Oval, Vauxhall, Camberwell and Peckham. In SE11 (and, probably SE17), the nearest place to shop for clothes (other than Lower Marsh) is Oxford Street (a real nuisance to get to!) or Lewisham (too far south).

If the shops were to implement a good delivery service for large goods, I can't see why large car park is necessary.

That's not to say that I wouldn't be sad to see the Elephant Shopping Centre, as it exists at the moment, close. Despite being relatively rundown, it seems to be rather full of thriving shops, and a place where many people gather and socialise. There's a vibrancy there that is lacking in the "smarter" shopping centres, and it has a uniqueness that would be hard to match. A while ago, I went to look at the Bingo hall on the top floor of the Elephant! I was quite astonished at the sheer numbers of people who seem to gather to play socially. I wonder what will happen to the Bingo, and the people who meet at it when the area is regenerated.

Hi Vally,

Thanks for your interesting insights. I only know the Brunswick Centre as a punter, so that was illuminating. I didn't know anything about the history of the Lambeth Walk shopping centre.

I remember the Brunswick Centre before the redevelopment, and was one of those people who never shopped there. You're right to mention the concentration of chain stores in the redeveloped centre, but it is definitely better than it used to be and seems to bustle whenever I'm there. I've not seen all of the units occupied at the same time, though.

Homeletter seems to me to be about right in his estimation of the catchment area, and his appreciation of the current shopping centre. I'd add much of the South Bank to the catchment area, too, if the mix of shops is right. Lower Marsh isn't all that for clothes, either, and I find I have to go up West.

I fear that this whole debate is moot, however, unless the council and the capitalists pull their fingers out and get on with some development.

Two more imminent council meetings which might elicit interesting answers

Full Council Assembly meeting tonight (8th July 7.00 pm Town Hall, Peckham Rd - public are allowed to attend)

http://moderngov.southwarksites.com/Published/C00000132/M00002874/$$ADocPackPublic.pdf

1. QUESTION TO THE LEADER FROM COUNCILLOR PETER JOHN
What guarantees has the leader sought from the preferred bidder regarding its ability to complete the Elephant & Castle scheme in the current economic climate?
4. QUESTION TO THE LEADER FROM COUNCILLOR RICHARD LIVINGSTONE
Can the leader provide the date by which he expects the agreement with the preferred bidder for the Elephant & Castle regeneration will be signed?
6. QUESTION TO THE LEADER FROM COUNCILLOR ALISON MCGOVERN
What alternative development proposals is the leader considering to improve the Elephant & Castle area, in case the current proposals cannot be progressed?
9. QUESTION TO THE DEPUTY LEADER AND EXECUTIVE MEMBER FOR HOUSING FROM COUNCILLOR CHRIS PAGE
Does the executive member believe that any deal reached with Lend Lease for the Elephant & Castle regeneration will be as satisfactory for Southwark and Southwark residents as it would have been had it been concluded within the original timetable?
10. QUESTION TO THE DEPUTY LEADER AND EXECUTIVE MEMBER FOR HOUSING FROM COUNCILLOR IAN WINGFIELD
Does the executive member believe that the final agreement with the preferred bidder for the Elephant & Castle regeneration will meet the council’s aspirations for the number of socially affordable homes in the scheme?
11. QUESTION TO THE DEPUTY LEADER AND EXECUTIVE MEMBER FOR HOUSING FROM COUNCILLOR KIRSTY MCNEILL
Is the executive member for housing able to re-iterate assurances that all residents required to move as a result of the Elephant & Castle regeneration schemes will be able to return to the area following the completion of the scheme?
14. QUESTION TO THE DEPUTY LEADER AND EXECUTIVE MEMBER FOR HOUSING FROM COUNCILLOR COLUMBA BLANGO
Would the executive member for housing tell us what steps he has taken to ensure that new social housing is being developed in Southwark?

Overview and Scrutiny Committee (6pm Town Hall, Monday 13th July, likely to get to this at about 7pm, again largely open to the public)

This is expected to discuss the New Housing site report to Major Projects Board because Councillors Fiona Colley, John Friary, Barrie Hargrove and Veronica Ward requested a call-in of the decisions on the following grounds:

“Lack of consultation – Local residents, including Heygate residents and Friends of Nursery Row Park, have not been consulted ahead of this decision to drop a number of replacement housing sites from the plans or the proposal to build a new church hall on Nursery Row Park.

“Clarity of aims and desired outcomes and link between strategy and implementation – it is not clear from the report how the decision to drop a number of sites from the plans will affect the overall Elephant & Castle Masterplan/Development Framework commitments to provide “up to 1,100 new homes to replace existing Council housing units lost as a result of the redevelopment proposals” and also “not fewer than 4,200 mixed tenure additional new homes”