Gibraltar

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Tuesday 6 August 2013 12.29am
In the hopefully unlikely event that it all kicks off between Spain and the U.K. over the Rock, I wonder if Argentina will sell their European cousins any spare Exocets left over from that little tiff in the South Atlantic in 1982?
Please God it's settled by political discussions, as I don't think Spain would be such a relative push-over as the Argentines were.
Tuesday 6 August 2013 4.33pm
I found this with a bit of Googling:

The facts are these. The question of what rights the UK has over Gibraltar were set out in the Treaty of Utrecht- It states that Spain ceded to Great Britain "the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging". Doesn't mention the sea around the town being ceded. It also states "that the above-named propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction, and without any open communication by land with the country round about". And finally it makes clear that "And in case it shall hereafter seem meet to the Crown of Great Britain to grant, sell or by any means to alienate therefrom the propriety of the said town of Gibraltar, it is hereby agreed and concluded that the preference of having the sale shall always be given to the Crown of Spain before any others." so if the Gibraltarians want to cease to be full British Subjects they are obliged to become Spanish subjects if Spain so wishes.

Britain has not behaved very honourably in respect of this treaty because the growth of Gibraltar onto the isthmus began with the construction of two forts in the northernmost part of the ceded territory. In 1815, Gibraltar suffered a yellow fever epidemic. This led to a Spanish concession so a temporary health camp could be built on the isthmus. After the plague was over, Gibraltar did not remove the camp. In 1854, a new epidemic prompted more health camps, gaining Gibraltar another 800 metres. The occupation of the isthmus culminated in 1938 with the construction of the airport. All of this on Spanish land not ceded by any treaty.

At the end of 2008, the European Commission included most of the waters that surround Gibraltar under a marine conservation area known as the "Estrecho Oriental" that will be maintained by Spain.

So that is the starting position. On top of that the vast majority of the current inhabitants of the town of Gibraltar are descended from immigrants as there were very few Gibraltarians at the time that Gibraltar was ceded. And Gibraltar is another British fiscal paradise where companies and individuals based in Spain can use Gibraltar to avoid paying their fair share of taxes in Spain.

So now we have the starting point clear I will be interested to watch how the discussion develops.
Wednesday 7 August 2013 9.59pm
This British owned rock on the tip of Southern Spain is a ridiculous anomaly in this era, but so is Spain's possession of Cueta and Melilla in Northern Morocco.
Two former colonial powers, fading fast, still under the impression that they somehow have "influence" beyond their shores. Pathetic.
Wednesday 14 August 2013 1.50pm
unfortunately it is not just about bits of rock but also the people who live there who have in various referendums made it clear they want to remain British
Wednesday 14 August 2013 4.05pm
dee dee wrote:
unfortunately it is not just about bits of rock but also the people who live there who have in various referendums made it clear they want to remain British



I have seen a couple of articles where it has been suggested that Gibraltar, and its denizens, were toying with going the "independent" route.
Not sure that this would work, as according to the Treaty of Utrecht, Britain was ceded Gibraltar, its lands and forts, (but not the waters that surround it bizarrely), in perpetuity.
The proviso was written in, that in the event of Britain deciding that it no longer wished to keep Gibraltar, it must be first offered to the Crown of Spain.
That would appear to put the kibosh on independence.
Back to square one.
Thursday 15 August 2013 9.02pm
Tom Pepper wrote:
In the hopefully unlikely event that it all kicks off between Spain and the U.K. over the Rock, I wonder if Argentina will sell their European cousins any spare Exocets left over from that little tiff in the South Atlantic in 1982?
Please God it's settled by political discussions, as I don't think Spain would be such a relative push-over as the Argentines were.

Nah they'll get them off France,cut out the middle man and save a fortune on postage.

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