http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/list/1 EN Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:29:39 +0100 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:29:39 +0100 SE1 Discussion Phorum 5.1.6 600 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/116686#msg-116686 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Rambling Phil) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/116686#msg-116686 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:29:39 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/116643#msg-116643 forum@london-se1.co.uk (bigphil) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/116643#msg-116643 Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:11:51 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/116635#msg-116635 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Rambling Phil)
Your post on another thread reminded me of this
[quote]keep an eye out for our opening weekend which includes a family sunday lunch.

cant say which pub we are buying for another few days.
but will let you all know as soon as possible
cheers all[/quote]".

Any news?

Phil]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/116635#msg-116635 Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:57:00 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/116077#msg-116077 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Bloggie)
I thought that I had gone out on a limb or perhaps pushed the envelope a tad, but Mr. Dog, you make me sound like St. Francis or St. Nicholas![/quote]



:->]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/116077#msg-116077 Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:17:13 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115960#msg-115960 forum@london-se1.co.uk (sarah2)
TAS was not a chain when my children were toddlers. It was a new and very busy venue in The Cut. My son actually asked to have his 4th birthday meal there, because the waiters were lovely and there was a real sense of occassion. Perhaps this attitude is one of the reasons it grew into a chain.

I did not eat out a lot when I was a child, but we did get taken up to Soho to some quite famous restaurants for big family occassions. We were expected to behave properly and we did. I assume the same from my children.

There is something strange about the way it appears to be assumed that all children are badly behaved and that it is inevitably the parents fault.

To a large extent London children are expected to be invisible. My daughter has just started commuting to school by tube and for the first week we have been taking her part of the way. We are astonished how many quite small children we now spot navigating their way through London rush hour on their own with huge and heavy rucksacks. We just never noticed them before. A group misbehaving would be noticed and presumably the assumption would be that children dont know how to behave and so should not use public transport.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115960#msg-115960 Sun, 13 Sep 2009 00:16:53 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115895#msg-115895 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Trevor)
Indeed - they plan to take over the world one day.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115895#msg-115895 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:40:40 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115885#msg-115885 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Tom Pepper)
I thought that I had gone out on a limb or perhaps pushed the envelope a tad, but Mr. Dog, you make me sound like St. Francis or St. Nicholas!]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115885#msg-115885 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:25:46 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115883#msg-115883 forum@london-se1.co.uk (markadams99) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115883#msg-115883 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:21:16 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115880#msg-115880 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Mr_Dog) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115880#msg-115880 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:51:33 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115878#msg-115878 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Gwynaethva)
However, perhaps my view comes because I too was raised in a very loving family but with rather firm hand. We were often taken to restaurants and if we started to misbehave, either a look from my mother or father or a 'You've got one last chance' always worked a treat on my sister and I. I find that a lot of children, in London particularly, think that they are in charge and their parents let them behave like it.

I often go out with my best friend and her two and a half year old. We even went for Sunday lunch in Village East on Sunday and she is very well behaved, so it's not that I don't like children (I'll refrain from the joke about not being able to eat a whole one, in case it gets misconstrued!)

I think the problem with these types of threads is people make generalisations and then other people perhaps think 'MY children aren't like that'... and respond with all guns blazing and then it all just escalates.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115878#msg-115878 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:29:58 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115874#msg-115874 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Trevor)
I don't agree with all parts of the rest of it - but he wouldn't expect me to as I'm one of the 'now generation'. There was a fair bit of not so gentle castigation as well - see Bloggies's post on lazy parenting.

As for poor Ivanhoe, I think that the fact that he would challenge boorish behaviour is admirable.

But the question was actually to Serge. Challenging the behaviour of parents and children one third his size is one thing - but would he take it to the streets and really openly challenge drunks or for that matter people who litter, put their feet on seats, spit, swear, let their dogs poo without cleaning up behind them, dodge fares and on and on and on...

Really? - It sounds exhausting.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115874#msg-115874 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 09:31:37 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115869#msg-115869 forum@london-se1.co.uk (serge) And as far as Trevor is concerned, I have NEVER been to a restaurant where people are drunk. I hope your "petites têtes blondes" don't have to experience that as it can be very traumatic for them!]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115869#msg-115869 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 06:01:08 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115847#msg-115847 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Tom Pepper) I think that it may be a generational thing.
The older the poster, the more that they appear dismayed at not just how badly children can sometimes behave in a public place, but also at how virulently their parents defend that behaviour, and wax indignant that other people don't accept it as a learning and developing curve.
Brought up in an age of austerity I cannot recall ever going to a restaurant with my parents, but I certainly took my tribe to various establishments as they were growing up, and we are not talking Wimpy Bars or Burger King here.
The thing is, they were educated in what is and is not acceptable before they were let loose on the public, with the result that at the first sign of anything untoward all that was necessary was a meaningful look or a quiet word and that was that.
Debrajoan found herself lightly damned by Sarah2 and categorised as "the likes of Debrajoan" when she submitted what appeared to me to be a perfectly reasonable post on the subject.
Serge appears to have an open and fair attitude to all by his postings but is ever so gently castigated by Trevor, who by offering an apology in advance to anyone who may encounter his children when they are presumably having an off day is merely saying, "They're children, what do you expect? Tough luck, suck it up."
Even poor Ivanhoe, that most erudite of contributors is blithely labelled a Super Nanny for having the temerity to state that he would question boorish behaviour should he encounter it while he was dining out.
To sum up, there appears to be a wide, unbridgeable gulf between the generations, the older one who cannot conceive of allowing children to misbehave in public, and the now generation whose attitude appears to be, "Dinosaurs, get over yourself, this is how it is now, get used to it."]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115847#msg-115847 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:18:53 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115840#msg-115840 forum@london-se1.co.uk (JulesetJim) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115840#msg-115840 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 14:50:10 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115820#msg-115820 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Gwynaethva)
Sorry but I'm not raising to that bait. I'm not that immature! lol]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115820#msg-115820 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:49:45 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115814#msg-115814 forum@london-se1.co.uk (shaggy) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115814#msg-115814 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:16:49 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115806#msg-115806 forum@london-se1.co.uk (emmab)
Spending on eating out has doubled in the past 15 years and more money is now spent on eating out than food at home so I'm not sure that Gwynaethva's assertion that 'for most of us, a meal out is a luxury' - eating out is a normal regular occurrence - in fact, more likely a luxury for the parents due to the sheer logistics of getting there. So, whilst a culture of families in restaurants (God forbid!) is still not as embedded as in other countries such as Spain and Italy, it's not going to diminish and as there's been quite a baby boom in SE1 over the past few years, maybe we all have to get used to it and adjust our behaviour and our tolerance levels?

We're not exactly talking fine dining - no toddlers chucking foie gras in Claridges (yet). The restaurants mentioned, Ottolenghi and Del Aziz, are very informal and aimed at a wide range of clientele - certainly Ottolenghi is aimed at yummy mummies so steer well clear or you might even witness a spot of breastfeeding. Even better, find somewhere more child unfriendly - The Garrison is a no go for anyone with a pushchair and further afield somewhere like Andrew Edmunds would be near impossible to get a child into - otherwise, up the stakes and hit Magdalen and you'll be guaranteed a night of adult sophistication, no doubt with a few exhausted looking couples who managed to get a babysitter.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115806#msg-115806 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 01:28:55 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115797#msg-115797 forum@london-se1.co.uk (eDWaRD WooDWaRD)
Well put, I couldn't agree more.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115797#msg-115797 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 23:41:23 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115795#msg-115795 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Trevor)
it beggers belief really.[/quote]

No one has defended allowing kids to run around unchecked in restaurants, but even the most well-behaved kids can have their moments.

I get a tad narked at the zero tolerance attitude that seems to favour children being seen but not heard, being allowed only in certain types of restaurants and making sure they're out of there before the 'adults' arrive. Children aren't some kind of social disease that should be hidden way from polite society.

I somehow seem to have failed to get this across, - probably something to do with my lazy parenting style.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115795#msg-115795 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 23:29:54 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115790#msg-115790 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Bloggie)
why do so many families go to restaurants all the time, what's happened to cooked meals at home. A lazy and throw away society in which kids learn that food is all quick and ready made.

bring out the kiddies sure, but when they are noisy, expect someone who is also paying for the priviledge of a ready made meal and nice ambience, to get a tad narked.

By not watching your kids and teaching them respect of others, you are in the wrong. but what generally happens, is that the innocent quiet and respectful diner with no kids, is yelled at by said parents, when trying to ask for the kids to stop running about. So you get on the defensive, when truthfully you know you are just being a lazy parent.

it beggers belief really.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115790#msg-115790 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 22:32:03 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115787#msg-115787 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Sophie)
Del Aziz does welcome children - Riverside Parents and Borough Babies were given 50% off deals to bring their kids to the restaurant...they want the custom. Yet not providing kids menus or doing small portions is missing a trick. Half the fun for a little one of feeling grown up and learning how to behave appropriately in a restaurant is having a menu and picking out your choices. It doesn't have to be burgers or nuggets. And charging adult prices for a 3 year old's drink is silly.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115787#msg-115787 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:44:18 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115770#msg-115770 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Gwynaethva)
It all depends on the band, just as it depends on the children. Some bands are great, just as some children are great. But it only takes one bad band or one child running amok to ruin the atmosphere in an otherwise peaceful restaurant.

Unfortunately, people being people, tend to remember bad experiences rather than good ones, which is possibly why some people aren't particularly welcoming when they see small children being brought along.

I was in Del Aziz last Wednesday and there was a band setting up when we arrived and so I immediately asked if I could sit as far away as possible... I just didn't know how good or bad they were going to be and so I'd rather sit as far away as I can, just to be safe and away from any possible caterwauling!]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115770#msg-115770 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:19:32 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115768#msg-115768 forum@london-se1.co.uk (eDWaRD WooDWaRD) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115768#msg-115768 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:48:05 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115764#msg-115764 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Trevor) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115764#msg-115764 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:04:25 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115761#msg-115761 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Ivanhoe)
I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how to rear a child.

All I'm saying is that my upbringing, and subsequent experience, means that I think it's better to speak up in a situation like that than to sit there and say nothing.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115761#msg-115761 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:32:55 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115760#msg-115760 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Trevor)
I'm sure that most parents reading this thread do sympathise with the disturbance their kids can cause.

As for the 'high-noon' get out of town by... comment - well I don't know where to start.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115760#msg-115760 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:21:31 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115759#msg-115759 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Gwynaethva)
That it's ok to scream in restaurants.

What's the definition of child-friendly? Del Aziz have highchairs so that's child friendly enough for me.[/quote]

Sorry but I think that your comment about a 'message to the kids' isn't entirely relevant to this thread. I'm not in a restaurant to send any message to any kids.

For most of us, a meal out is a luxury and I usually just want to enjoy the rare opportunity to have a meal out in peace.

So maybe it's more a message to the parents that the people posting in this thread are trying to get through. After all, children can't help where their parents take them, they'll generally behave as they want to, wherever they are taken.

My view is and has always been - feel free to go to any restaurant with your kids but be considerate for other diners and try and be out by the time that the other 'adult' diners come in for dinner.

I am afraid that I am unqualified to judge what a 'child-friendly' restaurant is.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115759#msg-115759 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:00:27 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115755#msg-115755 forum@london-se1.co.uk (bigphil)
wilst we dont have a specific childs menu, we are happy to downsize portions or mix and match to help out.

keep an eye out for our opening weekend which includes a family sunday lunch.

cant say which pub we are buying for another few days.
but will let you all know as soon as possible
cheers all

Phil]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115755#msg-115755 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:24:42 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115753#msg-115753 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Trevor)
That it's ok to scream in restaurants.

What's the definition of child-friendly? Del Aziz have highchairs so that's child friendly enough for me.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115753#msg-115753 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:14:18 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115750#msg-115750 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Gwynaethva)
People who don't have children would never go to a 'child-friendly' restaurant and expect to have a quiet meal, not surrounded by children noisy or other-wise. And they would never be so brazen as to ask parents to keep their children quiet etc in such a place.

When I lived in Islington, I used to often go to Giraffe for breakfast on Saturday/ Sunday mornings. It was always full of screaming children and I never expected anything less and I certainly never felt that I was permitted to complain about the noise, hangover or not! ;o)

Surely parents can understand that it works both ways?]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/115575/115750#msg-115750 Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:03:54 +0100