http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/list/1 EN Wed, 22 May 2013 14:06:19 +0100 Wed, 22 May 2013 14:06:19 +0100 SE1 Discussion Phorum 5.1.6 600 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171146#msg-171146 forum@london-se1.co.uk (eDWaRD WooDWaRD) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171146#msg-171146 Wed, 22 May 2013 14:06:19 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171144#msg-171144 forum@london-se1.co.uk (eDWaRD WooDWaRD)
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/drivers-to-blame-for-twothirds-of-bicycle-collisions-in-westminster-8602166.html

Summarising a survey carried out by Westminster City Council of accidents involving cyclists in its area, they reported:

68% were the fault of motor vehicle drivers

20% were the fault of cyclists

12% both were to blame or the cause was not determined

Of 133 collisions in Westminster in the last three years between cyclists and pedestrians 60% were the pedestrian's fault, 40% the cyclist's.

Only 8% of incidents were down to cyclists ignoring red lights.

I know you can't trust statistics (and motorists have already tried to come up with reasons why accidents in which they are at fault are over-reported!) but a couple of conclusions are possible.

1: if a cyclist collides with a pedestrian, it's more likely to be the pedestrian's fault than the cyclist's.

2: cyclists jumping red lights are a) BREAKING THE LAW and b) a b****y nuisance, but it isn't as dangerous as you might think, compared with the risk of being knocked over by a motorist 'failing to look properly' (21%) or 'driving recklessly' (13%).

John C[/quote]

Sorry, but I think that's rubbish.

I think that in most accidents the blame is in some way shared.

I mainly think this because I see it as part of every road user's responsibility (including pedestrians) to be aware of what's going on around them and to act accordingly.[/quote]

Agreed.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171144#msg-171144 Wed, 22 May 2013 13:52:37 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171143#msg-171143 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Guy's street)
Who are 'they'?]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171143#msg-171143 Wed, 22 May 2013 13:43:48 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171142#msg-171142 forum@london-se1.co.uk (eightoone) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171142#msg-171142 Wed, 22 May 2013 13:41:44 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171141#msg-171141 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Guy's street)
What this article ignores of course, is that road tax or not, there will be a huge number of 'cyclists' who also own cars and pay their vehicle excise duty every year - just like Miss Way.[/quote]What I find worrying about is that aparently Ms Way is only 20 years old. What kind of driver will she develop into when she grows up? Or will this be a lesson to her and other young drivers? I hope so. I also wonder how much programs like Barely Legal Drivers do to encourage to behave in traffic.[/quote]

Hopefully the embarrassment and other repercussions will raise her awareness and force her to address her attitude problem (which borders on psychopathic, boasting about endangering the life of another person).

I'd like to think that the kind of driver she will develop in to is one without access to a license or a motorised vehicle!]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171141#msg-171141 Wed, 22 May 2013 13:40:41 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171138#msg-171138 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Ivanhoe)
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/drivers-to-blame-for-twothirds-of-bicycle-collisions-in-westminster-8602166.html

Summarising a survey carried out by Westminster City Council of accidents involving cyclists in its area, they reported:

68% were the fault of motor vehicle drivers

20% were the fault of cyclists

12% both were to blame or the cause was not determined

Of 133 collisions in Westminster in the last three years between cyclists and pedestrians 60% were the pedestrian's fault, 40% the cyclist's.

Only 8% of incidents were down to cyclists ignoring red lights.

I know you can't trust statistics (and motorists have already tried to come up with reasons why accidents in which they are at fault are over-reported!) but a couple of conclusions are possible.

1: if a cyclist collides with a pedestrian, it's more likely to be the pedestrian's fault than the cyclist's.

2: cyclists jumping red lights are a) BREAKING THE LAW and b) a b****y nuisance, but it isn't as dangerous as you might think, compared with the risk of being knocked over by a motorist 'failing to look properly' (21%) or 'driving recklessly' (13%).

John C[/quote]

Sorry, but I think that's rubbish.

I think that in most accidents the blame is in some way shared.

I mainly think this because I see it as part of every road user's responsibility (including pedestrians) to be aware of what's going on around them and to act accordingly.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171138#msg-171138 Wed, 22 May 2013 13:24:12 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171132#msg-171132 forum@london-se1.co.uk (eDWaRD WooDWaRD)
What this article ignores of course, is that road tax or not, there will be a huge number of 'cyclists' who also own cars and pay their vehicle excise duty every year - just like Miss Way.[/quote]What I find worrying about is that aparently Ms Way is only 20 years old. What kind of driver will she develop into when she grows up? Or will this be a lesson to her and other young drivers? I hope so. I also wonder how much programs like Barely Legal Drivers do to encourage to behave in traffic.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171132#msg-171132 Wed, 22 May 2013 12:13:42 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171131#msg-171131 forum@london-se1.co.uk (beetroot) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171131#msg-171131 Wed, 22 May 2013 12:04:39 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171130#msg-171130 forum@london-se1.co.uk (urbanite)
Without blaming anyone usuing the roads they are becoming increasingly hard to navigate for all as poor surfaces and maintennce play a part, poor markings and signs too and very often the actual layout is done without any understanding of how all users use roads together in real life.

Possibly TfL should become part of your statistics base too John C?]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171130#msg-171130 Wed, 22 May 2013 11:56:22 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171123#msg-171123 forum@london-se1.co.uk (John C)
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/drivers-to-blame-for-twothirds-of-bicycle-collisions-in-westminster-8602166.html

Summarising a survey carried out by Westminster City Council of accidents involving cyclists in its area, they reported:

68% were the fault of motor vehicle drivers

20% were the fault of cyclists

12% both were to blame or the cause was not determined

Of 133 collisions in Westminster in the last three years between cyclists and pedestrians 60% were the pedestrian's fault, 40% the cyclist's.

Only 8% of incidents were down to cyclists ignoring red lights.

I know you can't trust statistics (and motorists have already tried to come up with reasons why accidents in which they are at fault are over-reported!) but a couple of conclusions are possible.

1: if a cyclist collides with a pedestrian, it's more likely to be the pedestrian's fault than the cyclist's.

2: cyclists jumping red lights are a) BREAKING THE LAW and b) a b****y nuisance, but it isn't as dangerous as you might think, compared with the risk of being knocked over by a motorist 'failing to look properly' (21%) or 'driving recklessly' (13%).

John C]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171123#msg-171123 Wed, 22 May 2013 10:53:26 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171117#msg-171117 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Guy's street)
What this article ignores of course, is that road tax or not, there will be a huge number of 'cyclists' who also own cars and pay their vehicle excise duty every year - just like Miss Way.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171117#msg-171117 Wed, 22 May 2013 09:44:00 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171104#msg-171104 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Jules62)
[quote]
[b]Twitter hit-and-run boast shows dangers of 'road tax' entitlement[/b]

When drivers say cyclists don't belong on the roads because they 'don't pay tax', it is a dangerous, dehumanising attitude

It's safe to assume that most people in the event of hitting a cyclist while driving, who realised what they had done, would stop, call the police, and stay on the scene. Not so for one young woman, who appears to have hit a cyclist, carried on driving, and then most bizarrely taken to Twitter to boast of the incident.

@emmaway20 Emma Way
Definitely knocked a cyclist off his
bike earlier – I have right of way he
doesn't even pay road tax!
#bloodycyclists

Norwich Police responded quickly, asking Emma to get in touch with them as soon as possible, and report it, rather than broadcast it to the world.

Norwich Police @NorwichPoliceUK
@emmaway20 we have had tweets ref an RTC
with a bike. We suggest you report it at
a police station ASAP if not done already
& then dm us
6:38 PM - 19 May 2013

Way has since deleted her Twitter account, after cyclists on Twitter roundly turned on her, especially once a cyclist came forward who had been hit by a car that didn't stop shortly before Way's missive. Toby Hockley, who'd been riding the Boudicca Sportive with the Iceni Velo club, came forward after seeing the fallout on Twitter. Both parties are now in contact with the police, Norfolk constabulary have confirmed.

What her statement says about hierarchy on our roads is just as interesting as watching social media close the net around someone claiming to have injured a cyclist. For starters there's the tiresome fact that, as every cyclist knows, road tax doesn't exist – you pay vehicle excise duty for your car, and road maintenance is funded from centralised taxes. Yet, the canard of "road tax" as an annual toll for using roads is rolled out time and again by motorists annoyed at the mere presence of bikes on the road. The fact that cyclists seemingly "don't pay" to use roads, then overtake motorists in traffic jams rankles, is burned deep in the minds of our more irrational drivers.

This internalised hierarchy on the roads is also evident as a pedestrian – it's not uncommon to be crossing a road when the lights have turned amber and have cars race off narrowly avoiding you, or for cars to ignore the fact you've stepped onto a zebra crossing for the sake of shaving a few seconds off their journey. But cyclists seem to bear the brunt of this – few cyclists don't experience regular outbursts of road rage, or dangerous driving from motorists who've clearly clocked them but are simply unhappy they're allowed on the road at all.

I've been told to "pay road tax" more times than I can remember, though sadly explaining the intricacies of road taxation – deftly explained by the excellent site I Pay Road Tax – takes longer than the few seconds you get on the road. And when this entitlement dehumanises cyclists to the extent someone is happy to excuse hitting a cyclist by explaining they don't believe they should be on the road at all, it becomes more than an annoyance – it's an active danger.[/quote]

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2013/may/21/twitter-hit-and-run-boast-road-tax]source[/url]]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171104#msg-171104 Tue, 21 May 2013 18:27:44 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171074#msg-171074 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Bowgreave) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/171074#msg-171074 Mon, 20 May 2013 22:26:55 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/170403#msg-170403 forum@london-se1.co.uk (John C)
It's not quite the same, is it.

If a cyclist jumped a red light [i]whilst travelling at the same speed as a pedestrian[/i], then it might be more equivalent. However, it's still not really the same.[/quote]

Actually, if you watch some cyclists as they approach a red light, you'll see them behaving just like pedestrians. They slow almost to a stop, look both ways, and if there's no traffic on the cross road they start up again and cross against the light. It's no excuse, but many cyclists do seem to regard themselves as being pedestrians on wheels - and behave with all the carelessness and the disregard of the law that endear the London pedestrian to us all. (Note - I'm a pedestrian, bus and tube traveller, and occasional cyclist.)]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/170403#msg-170403 Thu, 02 May 2013 18:24:58 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/170400#msg-170400 forum@london-se1.co.uk (mark_s)
It's not quite the same, is it.

If a cyclist jumped a red light [i]whilst travelling at the same speed as a pedestrian[/i], then it might be more equivalent. However, it's still not really the same.[/quote]

Surely a cyclist jumping a red without slowing and then hitting a pedestrian is the same as the cyclist cycling through on green at speed and the pedestrian walking into the road, or is my understanding of physics wrong? It's just as dangerous for both parties.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/170400#msg-170400 Thu, 02 May 2013 17:07:30 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/170397#msg-170397 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Ivanhoe)
It's not quite the same, is it.

If a cyclist jumped a red light [i]whilst travelling at the same speed as a pedestrian[/i], then it might be more equivalent. However, it's still not really the same.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/170397#msg-170397 Thu, 02 May 2013 16:45:31 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/170395#msg-170395 forum@london-se1.co.uk (mark_s)
If no ID band/jacket you get a fine....surely they can come up with something along them lines[/quote]

Haha that's quite an idea - those cyclists who go out to commit crimes (what a pest they are...!) donning registered jackets before they hit the road.

Of course pedestrians too should have similarly number-plated jackets for they also are a constant potential danger to cyclists, perhaps of a different colour (what to do about those who are sometimes cyclists, sometimes pedestrians - two tone jackets? A full wardrobe of different jackets?)

Forgive my occasional penchant for sarcasm but I can't help chuckling.[/quote]

My view exactly. the problem I have with any call for a registration scheme is this: How do you define a cyclist? If you buy child with a bike, it's a cyclist.
I'm a cyclist, and have a car, and I walk. So I never generalise and say 'I hate drivers/pedestrians', as I am one too. If any of you you decide to buy a bike, you become a cyclist.

As Eleanor says, would you advocate registration of pedestrians as they often cross the road when the lights aren't red- this is the same as cyclists jumping a red light?

Perhaps the police should crack down on *all* types of road idiocy eg pedestrian jaywalking, mobiles while driving, RLJs, cycling with headphones..]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/170395#msg-170395 Thu, 02 May 2013 16:29:05 +0100 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163572#msg-163572 forum@london-se1.co.uk (eDWaRD WooDWaRD) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163572#msg-163572 Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:02:23 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163518#msg-163518 forum@london-se1.co.uk (d90myg)
Despite a flat-backed Transit van damaging my bike and sending me careering across a usually busy lane of Waterloo roundabout some years ago, the police response was essentially "We spoke to the driver in the vehicle and number plate you describe. They match perfectly but he says he wasn't there so despite CCTV and the statistical improbability of you fluking these details you're not dead so it's not worth us even cautioning him."

Moral of the story? Be more careful and ride more assertively to avoid being dangerously marginilised on the roads. So at a junction I will now sometimes set off just before the red light turns to avoid being caught in the snarl of accelerating white vans and commuters because statistically I know this means I'm less likely to end up under one of them with a shattered pelvis. Ditto holding my own space on the road even if it means slowing cars behind me down because bitter experience is that all too many decide to pull in before they've fully passed, as happened with white van man before.

By the same token I have no patience with cyclists who terrorise pedestrians by speeding past at crossings or on pavements. I do understand why some cyclists will take to pavements, even if only for a shortcut, but if you're among people who walk you should be moving at their pace whatever way you are travelling. People are surprisingly accommodating when some consideration is shown.

Personally I don't think it is going to get better. Everyone in London is always in such a rush that we tend to lose track of the wider world around us, so unless and until our culture becomes more relaxed as in somewhere like Amsterdam I just can't see it getting any better. To varying degrees, some motorists will continue to fail to see bikes, cyclists will occasionally forget about the genuine fear they can cause pedestrians, and pedestrians in their own hurry (and listening to their iPods) will continue to step in front of everyone else.

To be honest, it's a miracle there aren't more accidents all round!]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163518#msg-163518 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:19:49 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163499#msg-163499 forum@london-se1.co.uk (beetroot) This running of red lights doesn't only happen at pedestrian crossings either. I've seen it at crossroads on many occasions.[/quote]
It's the same here, buses and police (not on emergency call) included. It's pretty normal now.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163499#msg-163499 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:22:08 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163498#msg-163498 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Ivanhoe)
What a shame that he, along with lots of other road users, didn't know that you're supposed to stop on amber.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163498#msg-163498 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 09:58:00 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163496#msg-163496 forum@london-se1.co.uk (chalkey) This running of red lights doesn't only happen at pedestrian crossings either. I've seen it at crossroads on many occasions. The old expression, 'amber gambler' is way outdated now. Amber is the new green, apparently.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163496#msg-163496 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 08:00:01 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163495#msg-163495 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Guy's street) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163495#msg-163495 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 07:37:00 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163479#msg-163479 forum@london-se1.co.uk (eDWaRD WooDWaRD) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163479#msg-163479 Sat, 10 Nov 2012 00:05:21 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163465#msg-163465 forum@london-se1.co.uk (chalkey) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163465#msg-163465 Fri, 09 Nov 2012 16:45:55 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163461#msg-163461 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Guy's street) How the law would interpret the pedestrian's actions, or should I say reaction, I don't know. As far as being a bad ambassador for pedestrians is concerned, if someone is legally walking across a controlled pedestrian crossing, then the only ambassadorial role they would need to observe would be not to push and shove their fellow pedestrians. There shouldn't be a cyclist in their path. I'm not condoning the pedestrian's actions, but if a cyclist ignores a red light and threatens the safety of people on a controlled crossing who, unlike the cyclist, had every right to be in that place at that time, then a reaction is perhaps understandable. (I purposely avoided the word, 'justifiable.')[/quote]

It depends whether you think an 'ambassador' should set an example or not. I'd say so, and so, and it hardly a good example to set to go around kicking off and taking the law into your own hands.

Of course, to call someone crossing the road, legitimately or otherwise an 'ambassador for pedestrians' is perhaps a little grandious!

I know when I'm cycling thorugh a green light or along the street in general and people step out in front of me, the last thing I do is aim myself towards them to try and cause them harm just because they are breaking the rules!]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163461#msg-163461 Fri, 09 Nov 2012 16:11:21 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163455#msg-163455 forum@london-se1.co.uk (chalkey) How the law would interpret the pedestrian's actions, or should I say reaction, I don't know. As far as being a bad ambassador for pedestrians is concerned, if someone is legally walking across a controlled pedestrian crossing, then the only ambassadorial role they would need to observe would be not to push and shove their fellow pedestrians. There shouldn't be a cyclist in their path. I'm not condoning the pedestrian's actions, but if a cyclist ignores a red light and threatens the safety of people on a controlled crossing who, unlike the cyclist, had every right to be in that place at that time, then a reaction is perhaps understandable. (I purposely avoided the word, 'justifiable.')]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163455#msg-163455 Fri, 09 Nov 2012 15:05:08 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163448#msg-163448 forum@london-se1.co.uk (beetroot) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163448#msg-163448 Fri, 09 Nov 2012 13:04:33 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163446#msg-163446 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Guy's street)
That irritates me immensely. I shouted at a cyclist who was cycling through a relatively quiet pedestrian crossing on the green man the other week, to get a 'who cares' in response.

However, the person who 'kicked out' could feasibly be charged with criminal damage could they not? A pretty stupid reaction if you ask me. I'd say this chap is a pretty poor ambassador as well!]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163446#msg-163446 Fri, 09 Nov 2012 12:57:51 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163441#msg-163441 forum@london-se1.co.uk (chalkey) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/155657/163441#msg-163441 Fri, 09 Nov 2012 11:21:56 +0000