http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/list/1 EN Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:35:14 +0000 Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:35:14 +0000 SE1 Discussion Phorum 5.1.6 600 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/103231#msg-103231 forum@london-se1.co.uk (karenplayer) ended up.

Kind Regards

Karen Player]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/103231#msg-103231 Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:35:14 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/103228#msg-103228 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Lang Rabbie) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/103228#msg-103228 Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:07:07 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/103215#msg-103215 forum@london-se1.co.uk (karenplayer)
I have been trying to piece together my family tree,most of whom come from
Waterloo or Walworth.
The old photo of Nelson Square stopped me in my tracks as I believe that the
two people leaning on the balcony are my Great Great Grandparents.
Their names were Laura and William Price would anybody be able to confirm this?
Their daughter Ellen married Samuel Howard who lived at 28 Surrey Row.
They moved to Mitre Road and went on to have 3 daughters Vera ,Peggy and
Millie. Vera married my grandfather (Edward) Ted Morris and lived in Webber Street.

Many Thanks

Karen Player]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/103215#msg-103215 Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:53:20 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/46799#msg-46799 forum@london-se1.co.uk (mojonojo)
the buildings are/have been refitted as flats and are up for sale by daniel cobb est. agents,



[quote Margaret]Dear Mojonojo and Nelson,

Next time you go past those houses in Nelson Square, would you have a really good look at the kind of locks that they have on their doors. I suppose the main lock will now be a modern Yale lock, but the old ones that might have fitted my key MIGHT still be visibleeven if they re not used. I would love to confirm my key story!!
My initial request of 21st January has turned into the most marvellous saga for me - when I tell my friends they say that it sounds like an episode from "The Da Vinci Code"!
Kindest regards
Margaret in Oz.[/quote]]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/46799#msg-46799 Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:53:14 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/46654#msg-46654 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Jan the old one)
the pub bit...tthinking about it and checking me ole brain cells....it was st thomas street end of snowsfields....

chat later..]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/46654#msg-46654 Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:16:17 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/46636#msg-46636 forum@london-se1.co.uk (loafer)
And I'd thought you'd forgotton!

Browning Street/Morecambe Street - the area I think you may be referring to is coloured green on my map. This means “Clearance Areas” which is bomb damaged properties which are being cleared as suitable for redevelopment - usually poor quality housing not worth saving/rebuilding. Judging by your description, they must have changed their minds, but forgot to tell the council!

Boiler House - Everything to the east of Great Maze Pond for some distance was destroyed. Remarkably, very little damage to the west, actually within Guy's Hospital site itself.

Regards,

Loafer]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/46636#msg-46636 Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:34:01 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/46602#msg-46602 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Jan the old one)
near robert browning hall and burial ground ( now built on) was on browning street, morecambe street was where my aunt lived..the boiler house is the large glass room as you enter the main entrance of guys on left side.....will do more later when boss aint looking!

thank you Joss..:-)]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/46602#msg-46602 Mon, 20 Feb 2006 14:50:01 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/46595#msg-46595 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret)
Next time you go past those houses in Nelson Square, would you have a really good look at the kind of locks that they have on their doors. I suppose the main lock will now be a modern Yale lock, but the old ones that might have fitted my key MIGHT still be visibleeven if they re not used. I would love to confirm my key story!!
My initial request of 21st January has turned into the most marvellous saga for me - when I tell my friends they say that it sounds like an episode from "The Da Vinci Code"!
Kindest regards
Margaret in Oz.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/46595#msg-46595 Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:36:25 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45914#msg-45914 forum@london-se1.co.uk (loafer)
Some answers for you - the question is, who won the arguments...?!

"Near Tabard Park - Porlock Street in fact a primary school was bombed, I remember playing in the ruins. "

Comparatively light damage - “Seriouly damaged, but repairable” to the south of Porlock Street down to Long Lane. A single destroyed large building to the east of Kipling Street on the other side of the Nelson Recreation Ground.

"Where the boiler house is at Guys up to the railway line London bridge station,
we called it 'fairyland' as kids because rosebay willow herb grew in abundance and someone had put tiddlers in the water filled pits! "

I'm not sure where the boiler house is, but virtually the whole the area bounded by St Thomas Street to the north, Great Maze Pond to the west, Snowsfield to the south (apart from the houses actually facing Snowsfield) and Weston Street to the east was completely destroyed.

"Pub at the end of bermondsey street/maze pond...I found some stripper outfits there! red hearts wiv white fur around them on a brassiere....mum would not me have them and threw them away... "

Not sure where you mean - Maze Pond & Bermondsey Street don't join...

"Swan street/corner of Trinity street? where jonas drivers are now and swan court is."

General damage to pub on southern corner. Also general damage to houses on northern corner but complete destruction of large building behind them. Pub on western corner more seriously damaged no damage to eastern corner.

"Guinness Trust, Pages walk"

A bit unusual this one - mostly minor general blast damage apart from in the two central blocks, one “section” in from the north, where there was complete destruction or damage beyond repair - a very small contained area though.

"my aunt lived in council flats near robert browning school, a bomb dropped nearby and the blast shook all the windows loosened the frames, which were not fixed till late 80's or even 90's! "

Not sure where this is. Can you give a street junction to work from.

"In Lambeth - top end of Gordon Grove, Loughborough Junction ( my brother cant dispute this one as he played there!) a train was de-railed by the bombing, perched precariously at an angle) "

Not much damage to Gordon Grove itself, but some from "minor" to "damaged beyond repair" to the east side of Foreign Street centred 8/9 houses from the southern end. A bomb probably landed in the gardens or on the railway line itself. Foreign Street no longer exists - now redeveloped possibly as a result of the damage.

Let me know if you want more...

Regards,

Joss]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45914#msg-45914 Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:10:02 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45815#msg-45815 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) I thought you might all be interested in this reply I received from a query to the Lambeth Local History Library. Because you all live nearby you might be able to go to see the maps Stephen refers to - they sound fascinating!
Cheers
Margaret in Oz

"Nelson Square was built between about 1807 and 1814, and remained intact until the Second World War. This library holds many large-scale maps of the square from the 19th and 20th centuries. The only (slight) change I can discern is that the outer railing of the garden was at one time oval in shape, and that it was afterwards made oblong to mirror the square in general, making the roadway narrower. The houses and the pavements in front of them appear to have been the same throughout. A parochial map of 1821 (for Christ Church Parish) has the same plan as the Ordnance Survey of 1893, with two access roads from Blackfriars Road and from Charlotte Street (later Union Street).

The earliest proper illustrations we have of the square were taken for the National Monuments Record during the Second World War. Although one corner of the square was bombed, most of it was left intact, and so it was postwar redevelopment rather than bombing that destroyed most of the square.

Volume XXII of The Survey of London (entitled Bankside) devotes Chapter 26 to Nelson Square.

Yours Sincerely,
Stephen Humphrey,
Archivist.

Local History Library,
211, Borough High Street,
London,
SE1 1JA,
U.K.
020 7403 3507
local.history.library@southwark.gov.uk]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45815#msg-45815 Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:40:54 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45772#msg-45772 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Jan the old one)
Bombing areas in dispute are:

Near Tabard Park - Porlock Street in fact a primary school was bombed, I remember playing in the ruins.

Where the boiler house is at Guys up to the railway line London bridge station,
we called it 'fairyland' as kids because rosebay willow herb grew in abundance and someone had put tiddlers in the water filled pits!

Pub at the end of bermondsey street/maze pond...I found some stripper outfits there! red hearts wiv white fur around them on a brassiere....mum would not me have them and threw them away...

Swan street/corner of Trinity street? where jonas drivers are now and swan court is.
Guinness Trust, Pages walk

my aunt lived in council flats near robert browning school, a bomb dropped nearby and the blast shook all the windows loosened the frames, which were not fixed till late 80's or even 90's!

In Lambeth - top end of Gordon Grove, Loughborough Junction ( my brother cant dispute this one as he played there!) a train was de-railed by the bombing, perched precariously at an angle)

lots more as well but will have to give you a break! thank you Loafer..:-)]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45772#msg-45772 Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:16:26 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45768#msg-45768 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) Thanks for that. I can then assume that the developers just moved into Penton Place and demolished what the bombs had not. Interesting!
Barcelona sounds marvellous - have fun!
Cheers
Margaret in Oz.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45768#msg-45768 Wed, 01 Feb 2006 01:43:39 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45765#msg-45765 forum@london-se1.co.uk (loafer)
Penton Place was relatively unscathed. The only significant damage was on the corner of Amelia Street. Other than that it was scattered "minor" and "general" non-structural blast damage.

Jan,

It's not available on the web, but if you let me know what the arguments are, I'll look and try and settle them...

The map is the 2005 publication from the London Topographical Society (www.topsoc.org), a fantastic organisation whose publications are usually worth (in money and more personal terms) many times the subscription.

I'm away in Barcelona until the weekend now, but will check back thereafter.

Regards,

Loafer]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45765#msg-45765 Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:38:20 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45736#msg-45736 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Jan the old one) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45736#msg-45736 Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:44:30 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45711#msg-45711 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) I wonder if you would consult that Bomb damage map again - to see if Penton Place was also bombed. Two years ago when I was in England I tried to find family houses that used to be at Numbers 9 and then Number 12 Penton Place, Walworth - but found the sites occupied by a 1960s development. I assumed then that the originals were bombed - it would be good to know if I was correct in this.
Cheers
Margaret in Oz]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45711#msg-45711 Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:09:48 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45710#msg-45710 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) What an interesting map to have - a bit like some I have for the Great Fire of London. Both events are good examples of the way that humankind continally rebuilds from even the most awful disasters.
Your description of the square with its gardens and the bandstand in the middle evokes the most colourful images of life in the square before the war. I wonder if it was like that in the 19th century too - when my forbears lived there. I notice that in Rabbie's photo the garden was fenced - perhaps, like some of the larger gardens in London, a key was required for tenants to be able to visit?
But thankyou for an interesting letter.
Regards
Margaret in Oz.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45710#msg-45710 Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:00:12 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45706#msg-45706 forum@london-se1.co.uk (loafer)
Following the comments about bomb damage, I thought you might be interested in a bit more detail.

I have a copy of the LCC Bomb Damage maps, which mapped all damage during WW2 in London.

They show that the buildings in the south east corner were destroyed (about three houses each on the southern and eastern sides), and the north western corner had from complete to irrepairable damage, possibly related to a V2 rocket which landed just to the north on Union Street.

All other houses in the square sustained some damage, ranging from "General Blast Damage - not structural" to "Seriously Damaged; doublful if repairable".

The map shows the garden in the centre of the square having a playground and a bandstand in the centre, with 10 small trees and two large ones (assuming the OS were being accurate, which they usually were).

Kind regards,

Loafer]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45706#msg-45706 Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:43:01 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45634#msg-45634 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) Thanks for that link - I will have hours of fun with it - looking up all the other family places that still exist.
What wonderful people you have as subscribers - I love them all.
Cheers
Margaret in Oz]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45634#msg-45634 Sat, 28 Jan 2006 02:54:46 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45628#msg-45628 forum@london-se1.co.uk (James Hatts)
You can't tilt the image like markandjoan did above, but still useful for quickly looking up a location.

[url=http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&t=k&ll=51.503056,-0.103472&spn=0.000751,0.001379&t=k]Nelson Square on Google Local[/url]]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45628#msg-45628 Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:17:45 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45510#msg-45510 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) Yes, I am sure you are right about Booth's map and the declining fortunes of Nelson Square.
My forbears (Fred and Jessy Sherwood) had fallen on hard times even in 1842 and with five children and three servants to support , emigration must have seemed like a solution to their problems. As you said earlier, those houses were built for a wealthy clientele that preferred to buy elsewhere and I suspect that Fred and Jessy were able to get theirs relatively cheaply when they married in 1840. Fred was a successful builder and bricklayer who inherited the family company in 1831 - office in 20 Cornwall Rd and later in Commercial Rd - but by 1840 the depression had bitten him badly. However, with hard work and a willingness to diversify, they picked up a little in Oz - which is just as well because they ended up with 8 children!
Cheers
Margaret in Oz.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45510#msg-45510 Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:57:58 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45509#msg-45509 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) Thandkyou for that - it is fantastic. My son brought up Google Earth on my computer up for me but I don't know how to work it - and probably would not have thought of consulting it anyway. That is truly a wonderful aerial view of what is there today. It must still be a nice place to live.
Cheers and thanks again
Margaret in Oz]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45509#msg-45509 Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:41:59 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45482#msg-45482 forum@london-se1.co.uk (markandjoan)
[img]http://www.sable.co.uk/image/nelsonsquare.jpg[/img]]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45482#msg-45482 Wed, 25 Jan 2006 11:24:15 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45480#msg-45480 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Lang Rabbie)
PINK: Fairly comfortable. Good ordinary earnings.
RED: Middle class. Well-to-do.

I suspect this is evidence of social decline in progress - backed up by the reference in the diary to some houses now being let as tenements (i.e. rented out as flats).

A house in the square The square would have been a respectable enough address for the ladies of the Mission to work out of, but cheap enough for the charity to afford to buy.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45480#msg-45480 Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:34:44 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45473#msg-45473 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) Sorry to her about the evil cold. Hope you are well soon and out in the garden again.
Cheers
Margaret in Oz]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45473#msg-45473 Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:00:23 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45472#msg-45472 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) From your description of the all the playgrounds it sounds at though it is a rather large square - must be two acres perhaps?
I have just found it also on Greenwood's Map of 1827 so it is certainly very historic - possibly built when he swamp known as "The Prince's Meadow" was reclaimed in 1815 - 16? If only my key or those imposing walls could talk we would hear the answers. Reverend Booth's Poverty Map of 1898 shows Nelson Square as a wealthy middle-class area at that time, the second highest on his economic scale. It must have been a most painful come-down for my pioneering forebears when they were reduced to living in a tiny cottage in the Australian bush. They were hard times indeed.
Cheers
Margaret in Oz]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45472#msg-45472 Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:54:23 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45467#msg-45467 forum@london-se1.co.uk (mojonojo) I believe that you have a childrens' playground, roses and a vegetable garden in your park now - and you all volunteeer to maintain it. Is that so? Sounds like a wonderful community.
Cheers
Margaret in Oz[/quote]

We have a rose garden and a large selection of play facilitys including a all weather 5aside football pitch & a half court basket ball court as well as swings and a adventure style playground.

im supposed to be going to the community meeting tonight but doubt i will make it as work is looking like it may keep me in late, plus i have a evil cold!]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45467#msg-45467 Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:55:19 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45461#msg-45461 forum@london-se1.co.uk (nelson_)
I live in the Square too. There is a residents association that is quite active in maintaining the square, even if it officially is maintained by Bankside Open Spaces trust. http://www.bost.org.uk/

Thanks, Rabbie, for the link to the photos, the one posted on the EVA site is directly from the spot of my current residence and I have been looking for a photo like that for ages. Did not think of searching for Blackfriars though. Weirdly, I can't place any of the photos that are listed as Blackfriars Road, though. One of them is supposed to be numbers 394, but the numbers don't even run that high I think. Not even the old reproduced Ordnance Survey maps from 1872 and 1914 have any of the addresses that the EVA site has for Blackfriars Road. Maybe the road ran once beyond St. George's Circus? Or the archive has those pictures wrong.

I wonder why the Blackfriars Settlement building were the only ones to survive demolition in the 50s? I have seen a photo from 1957 with one of the modern blocks completed, but one of the terraces still surviving. So not all of the square was destroyed in the war either. I think the bricks from the old terraces are still under the lawn of the blocks, as some could clearly be seen when some of the lawn was dug up for some works recently.

Btw, Margaret, there has been a few other threads about the Square here, should come up on a search. Also the one of the Palestra-threads had something about the square. I am intrigued by that key you mention, shame the original buldings are no longer there to find the correct lock for it!]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45461#msg-45461 Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:47:49 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45447#msg-45447 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) I believe that you have a childrens' playground, roses and a vegetable garden in your park now - and you all volunteeer to maintain it. Is that so? Sounds like a wonderful community.
Cheers
Margaret in Oz]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45447#msg-45447 Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:19:38 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45399#msg-45399 forum@london-se1.co.uk (mojonojo) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45399#msg-45399 Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:52:43 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45390#msg-45390 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Margaret) And neither will I. It is all fascinating stuff!
Margaret in Oz]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/45355/45390#msg-45390 Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:52:11 +0000