http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/list/1 EN Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:47:52 +0000 Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:47:52 +0000 SE1 Discussion Phorum 5.1.6 600 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12552#msg-12552 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Lang Rabbie)
The Bricklayers Arms (2/3rds of a league from the Bridge) was also a coaching inn!

Following the construction of Westminster Bridge and Blackfriars Bridge, a lot of carriages for the West End gentry would have dropped off their occupants at this more convenient site in preference to the congested locations closer to London Bridge.

The former pub was roughly where the Faraday memorial/substation now stands in the middle of the north roundabout. [URL=http://booth.lse.ac.uk/cgi-bin/do.pl?sub=view_booth_only&args=532025,178970,1,large,0]see map here[/URL]

From "The Queen's London : a Pictorial and Descriptive Record of the Streets, Buildings, Parks and Scenery of the Great Metropolis", 1896 - to be found on the web at:
The Victorian Dictionary compiled by Lee Jackson

[IMG]http://www.victorianlondon.org/ql/qr302.gif[/IMG]

THE ELEPHANT AND CASTLE.

Although now chiefly known as a spot where omnibuses and tram-cars stop, the Elephant and Castle was an important tavern in the old coaching days. It is nearly equi-distant - one and a half miles - from Westminster, Waterloo, and Blackfriars Brides, being situated at the northern end of Walworth Road and at the beginning of New Kent Road. In the thoroughfare to the right of our picture, known as Newington Butts, is the Metropolitan Tabernacle, so long the scene of the late C. H. Spurgeon's ministry. The building with a cupola is a station of the South London Electric Railway. The "Elephant and Castle" has for its sign the well-known crest of the Cutlers' Company - an elephant on a castle - [sic -LR] and it gives its name to a neighbouring theatre and to a horse repository.



Post edited (22 Mar 04 18:49)]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12552#msg-12552 Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:47:52 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12549#msg-12549 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Nick)
Kent St (then Old & New Kent Rd) was originally the Old Kent Rd and then what is now Great Dover St. And the original Roman Road was a lot nearer to London Bridge. So I don't think that this was where people would have caught a coach out of town. (But I may be wrong.)]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12549#msg-12549 Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:22:41 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12525#msg-12525 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Lang Rabbie) [IMG]http://www.heraldicmedia.com/site/info/livery/livcoarms/cutlers.gif[/IMG]



Post edited (22 Mar 04 14:35)]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12525#msg-12525 Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:16:13 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12522#msg-12522 forum@london-se1.co.uk (The Lady Miss Jo Jo)
Its name derives from the sign of a public house in the area, which shows an elephant surmounted by a castle.

As you say, it’s often asserted that the name is a corruption of Infanta de Castile, usually said to be a reference to Eleanor of Castile, the wife of Edward I (in Spain and Portugal, the infanta was the eldest daughter of the monarch without a claim to the throne). That would put Elephant and Castle in the same class of pub name as Goat and Compasses but, like the story of the way that name came into being, it’s almost certainly false.

Not the least of the problems is that Eleanor of Castile wasn’t an infanta (or at least wasn’t known as that—the term only appeared in English about 1600); the one infanta that the British have heard about from school history lessons is Maria, a daughter of Philip III of Spain, who was once controversially engaged to Charles I. But she had no connection with Castile. The form Infanta de Castile seems to be a conflation of vague memories of two Iberian royal women separated by 300 years.

The castle here is actually a howdah on the back of the elephant, in India a seat traditionally used by hunters. The public house called the Elephant and Castle was converted about 1760 from a smithy that had had the same name and sign. This had connections with the Cutlers’ Company, a London craft guild founded in the 13th century which represented workers who made knives, scissors, surgical instruments and the like. The guild used the same emblem. The link here is the Indian elephant ivory used for knife handles, in which the Cutlers’ Company dealt.

The real story here is actually rather more interesting than the one usually told, but a lot more British people have heard of an infanta from history lessons than know about the medieval emblem of a trade guild.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12522#msg-12522 Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:40:36 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12521#msg-12521 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Rupert Smith)
So: the inn gave its name to the district. As for the origin of the inn's name: well, as well know, pubs have weird names (Bear and Ragged Staff, Goat & Compasses etc) which often derive from heraldry, or religious iconography. My understanding is that the elephant with a castle on its back is a symbol of fortitude & perseverance, also adopted by the guilds.

I'd wager that the Infanta di Castile theory is totally cod.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12521#msg-12521 Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:28:25 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12511#msg-12511 forum@london-se1.co.uk (The Lady Miss Jo Jo) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12511#msg-12511 Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:32:34 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12508#msg-12508 forum@london-se1.co.uk () SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12508#msg-12508 Sun, 21 Mar 2004 08:15:01 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12507#msg-12507 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Shawn St.Clair)
]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/12507#msg-12507 Sun, 21 Mar 2004 04:01:24 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/4432#msg-4432 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Dave Zen) But here's some history that put's the joke out of the window.
Hannibal. (247 BC- Bithynia 182 BC), Carthaginian general, leader of the famous march across the Alps. These are the dates of when the first Romans came here. Personaly I think that the Hannibal was inventing the game of Football so that the Italians & the Spanish could have a long history of practice for when the met the ancient Brits first eleven.
Roman Britain - the Roman Invasion
Caesar's Summer Vacation. In 55 B.C. Julius Caesar, then general of the Roman armies in Gaul, decided that it would be a good move to try a little summer invasion of Britiain. It may have been a move intended to gain prestige back home in Rome, but it was a move that made sense. The Celts in Gaul had been receiving aid from their close relations in southern England. British Celts may even have fought with related tribes in Gaul against the Romans. Certainly J. C. complained that defeated Gauls would slip away to Britain to regroup. Tackling the British Celts made sense in the battle to secure Gaul for Rome.

Caesar's invasion proved successful but inconclusive. Landing in present day Kent, he did battle with several tribes that summer, and did very well, thank you. The following summer he returned for more, easily defeating the first real historical British figure we know of, King Cassivellaunus. Remember that British "kings" at this time were really no more than tribal chiefs. There was no such thing as a unified "Britain", and there was no such thing as a unified Celtic army to meet the Roman advance.

Julius Caesar left after two summers fighting, exacting a promise of tribute from the defeated tribes, but it was not for another century that Rome would try to extend its influence in England. In the meantime, however, the contacts between the Roman Empire and Celtic England grew. Trade flourished, and it is suggested that some Celtic princes were sent to Rome to be educated.

One important social change that occurred at this time was that kingship became hereditary, rather than a post awarded to the best war leader. This change was to have disastrous consequences; several princes fled to Rome to appeal for help in succession squabbles. Rome was happy to use this as a convenient excuse for invasion.

The Pretext. In 43 A.D. Claudius became Emperor of Rome. Needing a public relations coup to secure his tenuous position (nothing ever changes in politics, does it?) he decided to revive the dream of expanding the Empire to the British Isles. The pretext was conveniently provided by Caratacus, king of the Catavellauni tribe. Caratacus invaded the territories of the Atrebates, whose king, Verica, fled to Rome and appealed for help. Claudius was quite happy to respond.

Britain was regarded with some mystical awe by the Romans, and at first Claudius' troops, 40,000 of them, refused to disembark from the invasion boats. Once they screwed up their courage, however, they made a good job of it, sweeping up from the landing place at Richborough in Kent in a three pronged attack. We know more about the southern prong, at least partly because it was commanded by a future Emperor of Rome, Vespasian.
Dave

]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/4432#msg-4432 Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:48:33 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/2862#msg-2862 forum@london-se1.co.uk (The Hotstepper) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/2862#msg-2862 Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:02:54 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/1188#msg-1188 forum@london-se1.co.uk (JamesB) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/1188#msg-1188 Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:58:29 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/1163#msg-1163 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Bumble Bee) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/1163#msg-1163 Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:44:06 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/1155#msg-1155 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Lori Holland)
I also found out that Edgar Allen Poe lived in Newington Butts for a while during his childhood when his father/uncle? was headmaster at a school there.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/1155#msg-1155 Mon, 18 Mar 2002 05:11:08 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/1071#msg-1071 forum@london-se1.co.uk (alan d) The Castle? Well the Tower of London itself. London's own castle.
PS As to the Eleanor Crosses, as far as I am aware the only London one was at Charing Cross, where the equestrian statue of Charles I now stands just in the shadow of Nelson's column.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/1071#msg-1071 Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:39:56 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/982#msg-982 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Lori Holland) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/982#msg-982 Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:46:53 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/980#msg-980 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Bill) Go downstairs in Weatherspoons and there is a whole display on all the various possible origins of the name.]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/980#msg-980 Sat, 23 Feb 2002 07:13:02 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/970#msg-970 forum@london-se1.co.uk (James) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/970#msg-970 Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:18:42 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/963#msg-963 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Carol) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/963#msg-963 Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:55:41 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/956#msg-956 forum@london-se1.co.uk (doc) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/956#msg-956 Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:06:19 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/954#msg-954 forum@london-se1.co.uk (James)
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ele1.htm]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/954#msg-954 Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:25:19 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/950#msg-950 forum@london-se1.co.uk (david)
One of the Royal Princes from way way back was engaged to marry a French Princess (When we weren't at war with 'em).

She was only sort of 14 like they were when they were engaged to be married in those days and was housed as decently close to her royal fiance at Westminster - at a friendls fortified house in Southwark.

She was referred to as L'enfant de castille (Child of the Castle) and we Brits being masters of foreign languages bastardised it to Elephant & Castle....

Also am I wrong or does old holborn tobacco have the elephant & castle on it too???

Hope it helps.

David]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/950#msg-950 Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:01:39 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/947#msg-947 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Jolayne)
Is this just an urban myth?]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/947#msg-947 Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:47:18 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/945#msg-945 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Melanie) SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/945#msg-945 Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:25:36 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/941#msg-941 forum@london-se1.co.uk (James)
see - http://www.heraldicmedia.com/site/info/livery/livcomps/comp018a.html]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/941#msg-941 Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:43:11 +0000 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/938#msg-938 forum@london-se1.co.uk (Turlac)
What does it actually relate to?]]> SE1 Discussion http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938/938#msg-938 Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:35:54 +0000