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Anti-capitalism demo

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Friday 3 April 2009 5.34am
Zoe wrote:
Nanu Nanu wrote:
Sorry, it's my age. The older I get, the more these rag-tag collection of disenchanted posh kids, dole scroungers and foreign anarchists wind me up. No doubt their final blow against the global situation will involve trashing a couple of branches of Starbucks tonight.

Well I'm not posh, unemployed, foreign or an anarchist, there's nothing wrong with being any of these things, and I support the right of all these groups to protest. Democracy can be so inconvenient, maybe it's time we abolished it :-)

what is democratic about stopping people going about their lawful business and the wanton destruction of property? i wonder if these protesters ever think about the affect their actions have on other people who just want to work hard and enjoy the benefits of their labours. all this eat the rich stuff makes me laugh...has anyone ever been employed by a poor man????
Friday 3 April 2009 1.14pm
boroughpaul wrote:
i wonder if these protesters ever think about the affect their actions have on other people who just want to work hard and enjoy the benefits of their labours.

I wonder if these bankers and world leaders ever think about the effect (note spelling) their actions have on other people who just want to work hard and enjoy the benefits of their labours - without being taxed into penury unto the third generation just to pay for the greed-fuelled mistakes of a few City executives. Not to mention having our savings decimated by ridiculously low interest rates and the government's lies about inflation.

It's not about hating the rich, it's about fighting back against a system that will make us all a lot poorer - most probably you included, boroughpaul.
Friday 3 April 2009 1.45pm
The right to protest should be protected but only if the protest has a point to it.

But I couldn't see the point of the circus we had outside the Bank the other day. There was no unified idea of what they were rallying against, I think it was mis-directed and the protesters may as well have been punching clouds.

There's nothing wrong with a fat cat in the private sector if the business they run works well and beneficially for the employers and customers. They should be rewarded and the company they work for has the discretion to pay people as much as they want.

There is justified resentment against the banks and directors of those banks that have failed and we taxpayers have been forced to shore them up. Ordinarily when a company goes down no public money is forthcoming to bail them out and they just die away.

The fault lies with the government, they have poured millions of pounds of our money without properly penalising the bank directors who caused this mess. Not the fault of surviving banks or the financial system in general, it's the government's fault.

Financial institutions that are behaving prudently should not be protested against or attacked, the fault isn't with them.

The protesters should have headed to Whitehall and attacked the Treasury, they had a duty to do the bailout properly and ensure the banks they effectively took over behaved ethically now that they are public property but they haven't, hence the public resentment.
Friday 3 April 2009 4.06pm
so the people who borrowed more than they could afford to pay back or who bought houses knowing they were paying over the odds are "innocent victims"?? hardly...We all believed our houses were small lottery wins and we all rejoiced when that well-over-the-top loan was approved by a click of the mouse. my problem with so-called anti-capitalism is that the alternative has been tried and failed. or is there anyone out there who truly believes life was better in the communist bloc? i would suggest you ask a pole, or a czech or a croat etc etc if that is the case
Friday 3 April 2009 4.21pm
Everyone benefitted from the boom, directly or indirectly, and now everyone's going to pay for it.

When the banks reached the point where their liabilities were larger than all the profits in the history of banking, the choices became:
1) allow most of the banks in the world to fail, shutting down pretty much all finance and trade and allowing civilisation as we know it to cease to exist; or
2) step in and take the hit on the basis that a return to a barter economy was not an option.

Not ideal.
Friday 3 April 2009 11.39pm
The analysis that the sole alternative to 'free market' capitalism is state control industrialism is flawed.
Some of my happiest days have been spent working for poor people.
Lawful business can be immoral, protest can expose this.
Should protest only be allowed if the SE1 forum agree to allow it?
enough for now...
Saturday 4 April 2009 8.02am
The G20 protesters were gunning for any number of causes, the banking crisis was only one strand of protest. I agree with BoroughPaul that everyone has rights, protesters as well as those that simply wish to go about their lawful business -- clearly a Balance is required.

I also agree with Scamp, lawful protest must be protected. It should always be considered and absolute right.

The Banks are but institutions staffed by human beings and human beings are greedy, many are also poor judges of risk -- thus they performed as expected.

That is why we have 'Regulation', however Gordon Brown was so determined to cuddle up to the City he took regulation away from the Bank of England and gave it to a toothless animal called the FSA. So ultimately who's to blame for a mess like RBS? Well I'd argue it's ultimately a failure of governance.

As for the protest well I have to agree with the concept that many of those that were most intent on disorder were young, had the appearance of a student and ironically most probably the recipient of significant state support.

I stood for sometime directly in front of one such 20 something with a megaphone and despite all his spouting about economic equality, burn the bankers, storm the bank. I couldn't help but notice that he was sporting a pair of Calvin Klein pants! If that's not conspicuous consumption in support of a capitalist system then I don't know what is! Oh the irony...

Despite what the 'indymedia' might wish to claim there was significant disorder later on in the evening and I can tell you for a fact that they were chucking everything they could lay their hands on.. and it wasn't just plastic bottles, there was glass, sticks etc.

It's not a nice experience being nose to nose with your fellow man, especially when there clearly intent on doing as much damage to you as they possibly can.
Saturday 4 April 2009 3.45pm
I went to the protests as a peaceful demonstrator and want to counter a number of points above:

the protesters were a mixture of ages, races and backgrounds. Whilst many were young, I met a number of middle-aged to senior citizens, some of whom had been made redundant recently, therefore it is not fair to say all present were middle class students

it is true to say that there were a large number of issues being raised by protesters. However when you analyse the situation, the causes of the current economic crisis are complex - therefore they lead to a number of issues to be raised/debated

the police caused the violence and the press (in the main) reported the police's side of the story
Saturday 4 April 2009 7.06pm
'Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable.
The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalised, and the state will have to take the road which will eventually lead to communism.'

Karl Marx

Das Kapital, 1867
Holiday flat in Barcelona
Saturday 4 April 2009 9.08pm
sputnik wrote:
the police caused the violence

Honestly? I wasn't there, but are you sure they made some of the protesters smash stuff up?
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