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Monday 6 April 2009 8.59pm
Beowulf wrote:
Like Zoe, I'm not posh, unemployed, foreign or an anarchist either but I'd have felt very tempted to throw a brick or two in the RBS windows. After all, they're our windows now and we'll have to pay for them to be mended anyway.
Nanu Nanu, you seem to hate harmless hippies but not the bankers and our leaders who are currently transferring the nation's collective wealth from the populace to a small band of the super rich.

Oh, and well said, mickysalt.

Oh, believe me, I certainly have no time for the bankers and the leaders who have lead us down this ruinous path. In much the same way that I have very little time for the millions of idiots who have run up huge debts on their credit cards and taken out massive mortgages.
The thing is of course that said leaders and bankers very rarely have to actually venture into the square mile, so most of those inconvenienced by the rabble would have been ordinary joe schmoes going about their business. The reason why the TUC held their protest on the Saturday was to give WORKING people the chance to show their displeasure without having to take time off. They protested in a dignified, responsible fashion and put their point across very effectively.
As for "harmless hippies", they're fine as far as I am concerned, on the proviso that their actions do not interfere with others going about their normal business. To call the mob that put the bank windows in and threw stuff at the coppers "harmless hippies" is an insult to hippies.
Monday 6 April 2009 9.16pm
People keep saying they have no sympathy for those who took out lots of credit, but I do wonder how people imagine the majority of people are going to have any housing unless they took out a large mortgage on an over priced house. It's hardly the fault of the individual that credit was made so free that house prices became silly money, people have to live somewhere, and it's not like the council can house those who need help.

It's alright sneering, but I somehow suspect that those who are attacking loose credit have used the freely available credit themselves. This isn't meant as an attack on anyone, just a comment on how we all live today, you can't help but get credit.

Saying it's everyone's fault we are in this mess is rather unfair, I believe it was Thatcher's monetary policy that caused this, perpetuated by Brown when he was chancellor. However, it's not everyone who got rich off this, and lots of people are suffering because of it (and not the people who caused it). A little bit more sympathy could be shown to those who are losing their jobs, do they they deserve to be made unemployed because they dared to overspend on their credit card for the last few years.
Tuesday 7 April 2009 10.39am
I don't want to sneer at people who overspent on their cards and I take the point that getting on the housing ladder's been incredibly difficult, but it's just not true to say that the way we all live today you can't help but get credit. Many free-lancers take the view that the stress of getting into debt without any certainty of when/if it can be paid back outweighs any benefits that borrowed money can provide. As a result there are lots of people who live without going on holiday, buy most things second-hand and most food on a tight budget, stay at home when they haven't cash to go out for a meal or entertainment, and still live fulfilled and rewarding lives.

Having said I don't want to sneer, it would be a lie to say I'm not gobsmacked, though...
Tuesday 7 April 2009 10.58am
As you could see from my previous quote in this thread, and the same quote in Chatter recently 'Voice from the Grave', Karl Marx foresaw a lot of this in Das Kapital in the 1860s. Whether this will mark a return to communism remains to be seen.
Holiday flat in Barcelona
Tuesday 7 April 2009 11.21am
MonnowRoader wrote:
Neil - yes I believe it did happen. I don't believe anyone disputes it, not the protesters and not the police.

I think it is fair to say that there is, at the very least, significant disagreement about that account of the incident.
Tuesday 7 April 2009 2.29pm
That Marx "quote" is a fake by the way.

Just shows the power the InterWeb has to disseminate true and false information in equal measure.
Tuesday 7 April 2009 2.39pm
Quote was quite clever though I should have known since it was in the April edition of the Oldie. It had me fooled - I even looked up the first time the word 'technology' was used as I had been suspicious of it, and it checked out - first time it was used was in the 1840's.
Holiday flat in Barcelona
Tuesday 7 April 2009 5.28pm
Neil wrote:
MonnowRoader wrote:
Neil - yes I believe it did happen. I don't believe anyone disputes it, not the protesters and not the police.

I think it is fair to say that there is, at the very least, significant disagreement about that account of the incident.

Actually I've just come across this footage on the guardian website:

It doesnt show the attempts to treat him and therefore doesnt directly support or contradict the police's story but it does, perhaps, show why the police may have had a motive to be less than 100% honest about the events.
Tuesday 7 April 2009 6.27pm
Well, well, fine bit of riot control there, eh? You can see how much of a menace he must have presented to fully kitted out officers of the errm... law. Plainly out to cause untold amounts of damage and violence.

Sad to see.

"I was very struck by the large number of people who turned up with their cameras, seemingly with the express purpose of capturing images of "police brutality". The police will never gets things quite right in everyone's eyes, but my impression was certainly not that the police "caused" the problems."

Perhaps now the reason for cameras is evident. The police themselves monitor crowds in the same fashion, thankfully they too can now be held to account for their actions.
Tuesday 7 April 2009 8.09pm
Actually the footage shows fairly anodyne enforcement of police intent to clear the area in front of them. It's a tragedy if the push by the riot officer is connected to the poor man's heart attack, but far from police brutality. At the excellent image collection on The Big Picture are images of provocation by demonstrators which would test a lawman's patience. The aim of the provocateurs is just that - to provoke, so discipline may break down in some cases, but this does not look like one of them. A genuine Marx quote:
The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.
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