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Pedestrian Crossing - Abbey Street / Tower Bridge Road

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Friday 20 January 2012 1.09pm
Thanks James. It still is rather equivocal as you suggest, but at least it says 'seeking to develop', rather than 'whether to develop'. The updates on this are much appreciated btw.
Friday 10 February 2012 9.19pm
Rambling Phil wrote:
Quote:
i also would imagine road traffic flow has to be the priority for a road ...surely?

No, I don't agree. Road traffic in an urban space is an annoyance and danger to everyone, and the faster it gets, the more accident danger it poses.

Traffic flow in a dense road network (such as in London) is self regulating, anyway. If you make a car journey easier (eg by improving flow), more people will choose to use it over alternative routes or modes and, eventually, it will be just as bad.

If, conversely, you make it harder (eg by taking road space or time and giving it over to more social uses), people will choose not to make the journey in their cars, or will choose other routes.

Therefore, given a choice, urban public policy should prioritise pedestrians.

Quote:
pedestrians can every bit as irresponsible as many drivers

When a pedestrian walks unwisely, they are a danger to themselves. When a car driver does so, they are a threat to others. I can't see how it's possible for a pedestrian to be as irresponsible as a driver.

When the driver ends up in prison for squashing a pedestrian he had no hope of avoiding after said pedestrian walked/runs (many joggers are clearly suicidal) out into the street without looking and his headphones clamped in. Happens every day and every day I die a little more but have so far only just about managed, just, to brake in time.
Bring back the green cross code.

The reason Germany has the lowest pedestrian death rates AND the Autobahn is that in Germany jaywalking is illegal. And it's enforced!
Sunday 12 February 2012 11.25am
Quote:
When the driver ends up in prison for squashing a pedestrian he had no hope of avoiding after said pedestrian walked/runs (many joggers are clearly suicidal) out into the street without looking and his headphones clamped in. Happens every day and every day I die a little more but have so far only just about managed, just, to brake in time.

I agree that going round in headphones is silly idea and leads to all sorts of mad behaviour,

Highway Code General Advice 152 suggests that "You should drive slowly and carefully on streets where there are likely to be pedestrians, cyclists and parked cars. In some areas a 20 mph (32 km/h) maximum speed limit may be in force" (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070309).

If you were driving in an urban environment too fast to be able to stop when someone steps out to cross the road, there's an argument that you would have been driving too fast.
Monday 13 February 2012 12.40pm
Rambling Phil wrote:
If you were driving in an urban environment too fast to be able to stop when someone steps out to cross the road, there's an argument that you would have been driving too fast.

In some instances, undoubtedly, but in others I'd strongly say "No". Your argument leads to the idea that ped's should be able (?entitled?) to step out at any time to cross the road (?in any place on the road?), and puts all the onus on drivers to watch out for them.

I know you want to make the point that the onus should be on cars because a car can cause the most damage, but (in addition from the example BSB gave above, involving a bus) observation would tell you that even though it must be obvious to ped's that they will come off worse in a crash with a car, they still continue to cross erratically and sometimes dangerously.

Upthread you and I had a discussion (with examples) about how pedestrians can cause accidents. It seemed at the time that you accepted that ped's could do foolish things.

Personally, I think it's important not to pretend this isn't the case.

imho, the only way forward is to accept that EVERYONE has a responsibility when using the road. For me, this includes pedestrians. I have no problem at all with giving pedestrians priority in pretty much all situations, BUT I think that pedestrians should also exercise some responsibility.

We teach small children the green cross code (or whatever it's called in its current incarnation), and all agree how necessary and sensible it is for them to use that routine when crossing the road. Then we get into our teens and from that point onwards most people seem to decide that they are a wonderful exception and can safely run out into the road at random without it being in the least dangerous.

A lot of the discussion on this point is actually about priorities and selfishness. I'd agree that sitting inside a big metal box is a good way to become inconsiderate of those outside you. But it also seems that pedestrians aren't immune from the "I'm more important than you, and can't possibly wait" virus either. To me, they are both at fault.

...if you press it, they will come.
Monday 13 February 2012 1.29pm
Ivanhoe - I completely agree with you. We have, without doubt, become an impatient and selfish society. In my travels, I see so many people [of all ages] taking extremely stupid risks when crossing the road; risks that could, and do, have an impact on others.

I have one friend who will never use a crossing and wanders out into the traffic. He thinks I'm mad for using them. When I point out that I'd rather arrive safely at my destination, he shakes his head. Not as much as I do, when walking around and observing the idiotic behaviour of pedestrians, drivers and cyclists.
Tuesday 14 February 2012 10.41am
Ivanhoe wrote:
Your argument leads to the idea that ped's should be able (?entitled?) to step out at any time to cross the road (?in any place on the road?), and puts all the onus on drivers to watch out for them.

Actually, the highway code states you should

Watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't cross the road carefully, or look where they're going, but as a driver, you're more able to cause serious harm to a pedestrian than the other way around, so I think the onus should lie with drivers to avoid collisions.
Tuesday 14 February 2012 11.11am
babybat wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Your argument leads to the idea that ped's should be able (?entitled?) to step out at any time to cross the road (?in any place on the road?), and puts all the onus on drivers to watch out for them.

Actually, the highway code states you should

Watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't cross the road carefully, or look where they're going, but as a driver, you're more able to cause serious harm to a pedestrian than the other way around, so I think the onus should lie with drivers to avoid collisions.

Sorry, but you've clearly not read/thought about the excerpt you quote. That deals with a car turning into another road. In that situation, a driver should obviously be extra careful of anyone else crossing that road, and should give way to pedestrians.

The HC also says that drivers should be aware of the potential for pedestrians to cross the road unexpectedly in busy/built up areas, and should be ready to take action so as not to hit them. Again, I don't think anyone would argue with that.

But you're trying to extend that to say that drivers should be at fault for idiot lemmings jumping out into the road without looking. Which is ridiculous.

Personally, as a pedestrian, I'm well aware of who will come off the worst in an argument between me and a car. Which is one of the reasons why I try to cross the road sensibly and not do things which drivers wouldn't expect. I don't care who's in the right, as that won't give me any great comfort while they're popping me into the back of the ambulance.

Adult pedestrians should take responsibility for their own actions. And road planners should give them ample priority and appropriate crossing places. And car drivers, when they are at fault, should be punished with the full weight of the law (which, arguable, isn't yet weighty enough in the case of death by dangerous driving).

But to start from a position which says that ped's have free rein to be as stupid as they like, and all the blame will land on car drivers, is no workable solution for a crowded city.

Dogs show more common sense in crossing a road than a lot of adults.

...if you press it, they will come.
Tuesday 14 February 2012 11.24am
Ivanhoe
Sorry, but you've clearly not read/thought about the excerpt you quote. That deals with a car turning into another road.[/quote wrote:


Actually, what I was trying to show is that there already are a number of situations where pedestrians are entitled to step out at any time, to cross the road, and the onus is on drivers to give way to them. I can see your point that it's up to everyone to behave carefully when using/crossing the road, but I really think the language you're using doesn't help anyone.
Tuesday 14 February 2012 12.35pm
babybat wrote:
Ivanhoe
Sorry, but you've clearly not read/thought about the excerpt you quote. That deals with a car turning into another road.[/quote wrote:


Actually, what I was trying to show is that there already are a number of situations where pedestrians are entitled to step out at any time, to cross the road, and the onus is on drivers to give way to them. I can see your point that it's up to everyone to behave carefully when using/crossing the road, but I really think the language you're using doesn't help anyone.
Sorry - but again you've got it wrong.

There isn't any "entitlement" to step out into the road at any time (with the possible exception of zebra crossings). And the fact that so many pedestrians behave as if there is will be the cause of many accidents.

If you tell me what's wrong with my language, I'll try to amend it if possible.

...if you press it, they will come.
Tuesday 14 February 2012 1.46pm
Not quite sure what went wrong with my formatting there!

I fear this discussion is rather going round in circles - but I think that describing people as "clearly suicidal" "idiot lemmings" or having less sense than dogs is not the most appropriate language. I get that you're frustrated by the way some people behave - I am too. But I don't think the words you're choosing really help advance your case, and seem insensitive considering the number of fatal collisions that have taken place in the area recently.
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