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Roundabout at TBR and Great Dover

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Tuesday 8 November 2011 6.06pm
Sorry James127, the history of Bricklayers arms is not even vaguely that it was a cosy local neighbourhood, it was until the 1960s a major rail siding and junction covering a huge area that is now the flyover, roundabout and some newer roads like Mandela Way, Rolls Road etc. Bricklayers Arms was one of the major arteries in London for transport of goods and people into London. London Bridge Station pretty well took over the people part and the demise of the docks caused it's eventual downfall for traffic of goods.

That's partly my point, this is a major route into/out of London, not just for commuters' who make up the minority of road traffic on this road compared to business users anyway. I'm all for preserving local communities but focusing on this as an issue for Bricklayers Arms is ignoring it's importance geographically and socially to South London and it's place in a working Southwark, not just for the lucky people who can walk or cycle to their desk jobs in the city.

A little bit of history for Luke too in that the flyover used to have two lanes, for some reason TFL reduced this as they have been doing to a lot of roads increasing congestion for reasons only they can know.
Tuesday 8 November 2011 6.17pm
The flyover was reduced from two lanes to one after a number of head on collisions, says wikipedia.
Tuesday 8 November 2011 6.35pm
Hi Jerry, Bricklayers Arms goods station was east of Pages Walk, some way from the junction of TBR and NKR. Bricklayers Arms itself was a local neighbourhood centre; the area demolished for the flyover and roundabout was entirely terraced housing, and businesses. The goods station itself was not built on until the 1980s and is some way away from the junction. The staff from the goods yard definitely were important for local businesses though.

This picture gives an idea of the area destroyed.

This map shows the area today and in 1900 - even though the roads in today's map are not to scale, the area removed is clear.
Tuesday 8 November 2011 6.54pm
Thanks, Luke! There are also good pics on Flickr.

Also, I'm not sure one should really characterize the population living in immediate proximity to the flyover as elite city workers -- sure, there are some, but most are hardworking individuals in council housing.

They do not benefit from this monster looming over their neighborhood, and subways that are dangerous for their children.
Wednesday 9 November 2011 8.22am
If the flyover is removed there will be gridlock and accidents to pedestrians using Bartholomew street. When the flyover was being resurfaced traffic from the E & C travelling down New Kent Rd, when seeing traffic lights ahead that were on Red, would suddenly veer left into Bartholomew street, the noise was absolutely horrendous as even more lorries,vans etc., sped down our little street... as our street has a jutting out pavement at that end the vehicles nearly go into th3e bus stand, so swing to the left into the residents cars! It should stay, not just for the important job of speeding traffic on it's way but also the destruction of our lovely Bricklayers Arms affecting our shops and stalls down Tower Bridge Road would have been pointless.
sorry to ramble..:-)

p.s. forgot to add in our little street we regularly have coaches and plant type vehicles which are massive, in fact the other day there was 9 coaches parked in one line!
Wednesday 9 November 2011 11.57am
Of course any removal of the flyover can't be done without considering appropriate mitigation on surrounding roads.

I'm very surprised that Bartholomew is two way.
Wednesday 9 November 2011 2.36pm
This is a fascinating thread. I had no knowledge of the Ringway plan.

I'd love to see the flyover demolished but I have seen the queues whenever it is closed and so I'm not sure where that traffic can go. Extend the congestion charge/introduce road pricing?

Bakerloo tube station would be fantastic, as would more Boris Bike docking stations. The bikes are probably a more achievable ambition.

It would also make sense to create a bus-only filter lane or crossing point for the 1 and 188 to get onto the Elephant bound Old/New Kent Rd instead of queueing in the traffic for 5-10 mins every morning where the New Kent Road narrows from 2 lanes to 1. (The roundabout and Old Kent Rd are currently divided by raised island with railings)
Wednesday 9 November 2011 3.32pm
I found this aerial film from just after the flyover was built - and (at about 1'30") apart from the hugeness of the roundabout it shows two lanes of traffic travelling southeast on the flyover - giving the lie to the wikipedia entry about head on crashes!

I had heard (but cannot source) that the restriction to one lane was more in response to concerns over the load bearing capacity and long term structural integrity of the flyover - something that the recent closure did not address. And which to me suggests that in the medium term TfL have a major replacement issue on their hands, so considering alternatives now has to be on the agenda, and something we should contribute to. And given the huge land take of the flyover, I don't think you have to assume that an alternative would provide less capacity than there is now.
Wednesday 9 November 2011 3.54pm
Luke wrote:
And given the huge land take of the flyover, I don't think you have to assume that an alternative would provide less capacity than there is now

I don't agree. In this day and age, any empty/free land is built upon. Any space freed up by a removal of the flyover will just result in construction of cheap, nasty flats that most local people (and those who are not local) cannot afford. Just my view.
Wednesday 9 November 2011 4.18pm
Luke, love the aerial film - at 1'57' there is Astley House, but a space where Wessex House (the red brick low rise block) is now, then there is no Avondale Estate, celebrating it's 50th next year, the what must have been the brand new Tustin Estate, with green fields past Ilderton Road, and the old Den!
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