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Thursday 22 March 2012 10.19pm
Boss St Bloke wrote:
Dunno what you are saying/ranting about mate.
Just letting you know you don't speak for all of us when you gush love for Borough Market.
Thursday 22 March 2012 10.24pm
Hello Boss st bloke. Thank you for your answer.

1 I am answering to your post politely

2 I am not ranting and even less I am your mate. So...

3 I think less depressingly than you.

Lastly. Should I avoid Borough Market and shopping at Tesco? Or Sainsburys? Good catch..

I avtually think that your reasoning is anacronistic. Dinosours extinguished because they did not know how to adapt.. No matter how strongtjey were.. A market in zone one is bound to adapt or
Perish. I think if we lost the Market, London bridge would be much less pleasant than it is. I wish it will thrive.

Thank you.
Thursday 22 March 2012 10.26pm
And so it begins... Good night.
Thursday 22 March 2012 10.27pm
orione wrote:
Dinosours extinguished because they did not know how to adapt.. No matter how strongtjey were.. A market in zone one is bound to adapt or Perish.

Keep off the vodka mate - sorry, chum.
Thursday 22 March 2012 10.31pm
Oh there you go.
You gave the measure of the very person you are. I am off the conversation.

Check the spelling and try again. iPhone is not helping me.

Let's leave some space for people who want to talk about the Market and what is going on. IMO.
Thursday 22 March 2012 11.15pm
Orione, as you know from experience what kind of sentiment this topic can generate, I think you ought to show a bit of sensitivity and maybe not open up old wounds. This particular thread appears to have been started by a first time poster who might not be aware nor should be bothered by the at times, volatile and hostile history that comes with BM, so I think you might at least consider the effect your contribution might have on those who've been at loggerheads on the topic before. Maybe it would be better for those "BM veterans" to keep quiet on the sidelines and observe a fresh point of view by those less contaminated or biased by previous animosities. Otherwise this topic will again sink to familiar depths.
Thursday 22 March 2012 11.57pm
I agree.
Friday 23 March 2012 12.08am
Hello All,

I am a first time poster (who has resided and lived in SE1 for many many years), and I am trying to start a proper debate about a place of which we as a community should be proud. Everyone's views is greatly appreciated. After reviewing threads involving the market, I can see that it is quite an emotive subject and rightly so. I have questions and would like to find answers.

Crouch, a trader has kindly suggested that he can share the Market's view with us as a community. Hopefully we will hear from him during his train journey? There is a lack of information and hopefully he can filll in the missing information.
Friday 23 March 2012 8.21am
Crouch, a trader speaks...

Didn’t manage to post last night. too much oloroso at pizarro.

This is my interpretation of what is going on at the Borough, but please don’t treat it as gospel. I’m not a trustee, or an officer of the trust, nor do I sit on the Market Development Committee, which is the strategic planning group in which key decisions are made, not least all the decisions about Three Crown Square (TCS). If I get things wrong – please will someone tell me, not least so I can tell my customers? and i've not ventured my views about tourists etc - i'll give you those later if this post goes down well...!

“what will happen with the new space that is now occupied by network rail? Is this going to be for real food traders?”

The space behind Brindisa – what we call TCS – is pretty much being put back as was, in that it will be a market hall with a roof. The roof will include some of the old roof (the listed bit) and a new-build structure. The layout will be different to how it was, and the ‘entrances’ from stoney street and beadle street will be formatted differently. But in essence, it will be the same as it was before – but given an extraordinary new lease of life. Network Rail are even putting back the storage cellars that we used to use under the space, but they are adding a lift. (which to us market traders, is what really matters in all this!)

The offer will include a mixture of stalls and what we call ‘cages’ with more cages than before. I think it is a bigger space? At the moment pretty much all traders are in discussion with the market management as to who goes where. The ambition of the trust at the moment is to make this part of the Market a produce-only area, with all ‘catered’ type offers/street food, staying in the Green Market. I think the Jubilee is reverting to a car park, but I could be wrong. I hope it does.

“What about the new development on BHS, what is it going to be in there? Hopefully not just offices”

Offices? Blimey, no. It will be a single story, glass sided and roofed structure. I said to one of the market officers – partly in jest, but not really – that they should call it the ‘Green house’, because in many respects that it what it is going to be. A simple structure, enclosing an open space. At the back of my mind is some stricture from the planners about opening up the view to southwark cathedral from BHS, but I’m not sure. As for use – this is still being discussed. There are some issues yet to be resolved about how secure it will be at the back by the cathedral, for example. I would have thought a mixture of community use, maybe some corporate hirings and possibly some innovative approaches to retail (M&S, Pret and all that lot are flogging food til 10pm every night. Maybe the borough should have an offer in this part of the estate which provides some competition. Don’t know.) There is not a tremendous amount you can do with a single storey glass sided structure, I guess?

“And... Do you guys at Borough Market have the possibility to expand into some of the buildings that surround the Market and that were supposed to be used as school for Chef in the past? They looked vacant not so Long ago.. “

Indeed. Prime spot. Wonderful building. Heard something about this a while back, but can’t remember. My impression is that overall the trust owns a large estate, which needs a lot of sorting out, with the primary focus at the moment being this once-in-a-generation opportunity with TCS, and the chance to do something special in the old wholesale area abutting the jubilee market. Maybe this building can wait til these spaces are sorted?

Last: how much real decision power do you traders have over the future of BM? How do you see the future of the Market?

140 separate businesses? All with – understandably – different ambitions and agendas? It’s like herding cats! Joke! Clearly, the key decisions are made by the trust and the trusts officers. Someone has to be in charge. We – the traders – input into these decisions to a greater or lesser degree. I’ve mentioned the development committee. I can’t comment on the efficacy of this body, and then we have other forums where we meet with the management including monthly surgeries, and a system of ‘Trader Reps’ of which I am one of 5. My personal view is that it is difficult to get all traders to agree collectively to a particular position or policy decision, and that if we were better at this, then we would have a stronger voice. Hot food is the perennial hot potato – some passionately for, some passionately against. The big policy decision in recent months by the Trust has been to move towards zoning the market (a hot food zone for example, and maybe zones for different categories of products. There is a plan that traders have had site of, but I’ve not seen it). I know that a number of traders are against this – for all sorts of reasons, some constructive, some just because change is a bad thing. The traders that sit on the MDC will have views on this – other traders different views. There – herding cats .

Are the trust and management doing a good job?

Obviously, the catastrophically bad (for all concerned) decision last 18 months ago (?) to eject the ‘bermondsey seven’ was a decision of the trust and its officers. Obviously, heads appeared to roll as a result of this, although I don’t know the ‘ins and outs’ of this. The new regime have arrived with the opportunity to deliver ‘once in a generation’ change to the market. This has – in effect – landed right in their laps. I’ve never met a trustee, so can’t comment on them. So I guess the answer to this question is – wait and see. The officers seem a pretty decent bunch to me – but it will be a huge challenge to deliver the exceptional rather than the mediocre. I’ve always said that there should be wider input into decisions by key London food stake holders, and I know for a fact that this is happening now in a way that didn’t happen before. Waterloo is in sight. Gotta go!
Friday 23 March 2012 12.27pm

Thank you for your very well thought through reply, especially after the oloroso! Looks like a communication brief of note.

The fundamental question which I have yet to receive a response to is whether the Borough
Market Trust has shared the plans for the future with anyone in this community? From your response it is not entirely clear, despite being in the Trader rep system, if you are certain of their plans? I am not a food stakeholder but I live and work here, does this mean I am not entitled to this information? Have you as a Trader received this information formally? If so, could you email it to me?

I also see that the Market Life can be found at stations. Have the local community received any copies or are we not worth the marketing expenditure? Does this have any reference to the future of our Market?

You have mentioned the hot food as a bugbear. There are a couple of Traders in the area opposite Roast Restaurant who appear to doing fresh produce on the side while their hot food is the main feature of their 'cage'. It has worsened. It looks and feels like an outdoor kitchen, slap bang in the middle of the Market, with very little emphasis on fresh produce. It is like the buffet counter at Docklands arena. All that is missing are the trays and cutlery at the entrance. According to a couple of Traders, at least one of the Traders in these 'cages' owes the Market ''a great deal of money", and has been 'rewarded' with an opportunity to change and expand his hot food selection. Did the MDC have input into this decision? They mentioned that another has been allowed to change his 'cage' to make way for their hot food despite the debate over "what the policy is". The traders in the Green area Market have told me that those in the 'cages' are given special treatment. These are things I hear when I go shopping at the Market. One is left to wonder how this will be dealt with. Our hope has to lie with having someone as reputable as Tim Lang on the board. There is a letter in a previous thread, which mentions a David Machette (see he is the development manager), who had some views about 'not having hot food ' in the Market at all. I don't agree that such tough measures are called for. Again, this has caused so much furore and as you mention Philip is a veritable hot potato. Is this cited in the long term plan?

You have mentioned regime change so I have looked into this and would like to know what this means? There have been regime changes on quite a couple of occasions as far as I can tell. It looks like 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011. I found this on Google, so am not certain of accuracy. If correct, something is amiss. More than half of the current board formed part of all or many of these previous regimes, and would therefore have been instrumental in the catastrophic decisions you mentioned. From what I can gather from Google and Soutwark Council they are Camilla Mcgibbon, Donald Hyslop, Tim Lang and Celia Palmer. On a mangement level, only Keith Davies has been brought on board. As a Trader said to me, nothing has changed except the 'face of the market". So effectively Philip nothing has 'landed in their laps' because the entire management team, as far as I can tell, is still in place and so are the entire Board. They will therefore have more than enough time to deliver something spectacular to this community.

On my way to the office I pass that buiding you mentioned opposite the Cathedral. Apparently another catastrophe in which Camilla Mcgibbon took an active role. I believe she was the Chair at the time. What happens to the rental opportunity for this property? I am sure it had tenants at some point in 2005. I will research this at some future point because there appears to be lots of information floating about. I bumped into a former Trustee at a meeting and I am sure there were issues surrounding that building.

Also it looks like some Trustees are on more than one Board in area. Who is serving Borough Market, its Traders and the community? Strange that all these Trustees have been on the Board for so long and are neighbours and are even on other committees in the area. from Southwark Council records, at m least one Trustee is the wife of a former Trustee and neigbour to another. Much like an old boys club. A trader explained that it is very difficult to get into Borough Marke and said that "that they are constantly audited and it seems that to become an employee or Trustee, one need only have a friend or neigbour working at or on the Board". This leaves so very many questions. Reading previous threads, I can see that these questions have been floating about for some time.
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