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Heygate Community Betrayal

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Monday 21 January 2013 1.29am
drog wrote:
Merlin Rouge - Negative equity, Market values. Should ex council properties/owners get preferential treatment ? I know i dont/dint..go back to the 80's and 90's
Boroughonin - Can i have some of what you're on!!

Rambling Phil - No it means an equal playing field for everyone. How do you take away properties from people who have already bought. I live in London SE1 one of the most important and first class cities in the world not Vienna which bears no resemblence. Is your second property there?

Why, do you want me to subsidise you now.I tell you what,we'll leave it as it is so no one subsidises anyone else,now that's fair isn't it?
Monday 21 January 2013 5.47am
Here's a thing,

I have just returned home after recieving a call out,I wasn't on call but received a call at 3 0 clock because the on call engineer said he could not get in within the hour, the given response time,I was there within 30 minutes of receipt of call,I stopped a leak on a trading floor over desks,and I feel confident in saying that I have just saved the client a small fortune,it's a funny old game.

Just saying.

Now to enjoy a day off.
Monday 21 January 2013 9.46am
drog wrote:
Rambling Phil: I'm from a 'working class background' my parent taught me to work hard and support myself. They gave me emotiomal support and not cash.I've worked hard and managed to buy in SE1. 100% inheritance tax my parents are still alive. level playing field... Seems from your last post that your denegrating achivers. Where wouuld we be in this world with out people who push themselves and want to make something out of themselves. I get impression (and it might be wrong) that you are resentful of people who try to better themsleves.

Hi Drog,

I know you don't know me, so here's a bit of background - comprehensive school, Oxford, currently employed by a financial institution. Living in my own, mortgage-free flat in SE1.

Never yet needed to live in social housing nor claim benefits, but am aware that I've been lucky so far and may, one day, need a safety net.

No, I don't resent people who try to better themselves. I encourage it - well done you.

I do resent the people who could, but don't, try to better themselves, but live on other people's money, whether that's benefits or the bank of Mum and Dad, and I really resent people who, on doing well think it's entirely due to them and seek to demean others who find life more of a struggle.

On Friday I was at a party in Notting Hill (get me!), talking to someone who's parents bought her a flat in Bermondsey, where she lives rent free.

Good for her (BTW is she an achiever or a scrounger?), but it shows that the free market isn't the 'level playing field' that you seem to think it is - She didn't need to work hard and save to live here and, by virtue of not paying rent for years in the way that those of us without such wealthy and generous parents have to, she will be able to save a deposit and buy a flat easier than others. And so the privilege rolls down the generations.

I'm going to ask you a direct question, Drog - Do you really believe that market housing is, or ever could be, a level playing field?
Monday 21 January 2013 10.29am
drog wrote:
I live in London SE1 one of the most important and first class cities in the world not Vienna which bears no resemblence.

Vienna always scores very high in the "most liveable cities" index, way ahead of London.
Monday 21 January 2013 10.44am
drog wrote:
Rambling Phil: I'm from a 'working class background' my parent taught me to work hard and support myself. They gave me emotiomal support and not cash.I've worked hard and managed to buy in SE1. 100% inheritance tax my parents are still alive. level playing field... Seems from your last post that your denegrating achivers. Where wouuld we be in this world with out people who push themselves and want to make something out of themselves. I get impression (and it might be wrong) that you are resentful of people who try to better themsleves.

Many of us are from the same working class background you refer to (in my case, Bermondsey born and bred) and I grew up on a Council estate with a lot of hard working, decent families who also wanted their children to achieve. I too own my property, but unlike you, I don't think it's time to pull up the ladder and deny families or individuals on a low income or benefits an affordable roof over their heads.
If the "blow-ins" who have recently designated SE1 as "up and coming", "trendy" etc don't like that, I would prefer that they bugger off.
Monday 21 January 2013 2.12pm
I am not sure this fractious thread will reach a consensus. Why?

Psychologists say that there are people who have a very fixed view of their 'success'.
When they succeed,e.g. by becoming a trader on £millions p.a they attribute their success to their own efforts. (ie success = their doing)

When they 'fail', e.g lose their job, they attribute that to outside factors. (ie failure is external). This personality type is actually quite useful, maybe necessary in jobs such as politics or City trading. They have to believe they are right, otherwise they have no value.

The problem is, their righteous preaching about how others should be 'more like them' sticks in the craw.

On the other hand there are people like me, (+ maybe Rambling Phil ? And maybe Jackie R) who believe that it's a crude simplification to group people into winners and losers, and it's a bit skanky for self-styled 'winners' to judge their fellow man.

That's why the thread has little in the way of facts (eg % of social housing in Southwark) but a lot of emotion.
Monday 21 January 2013 2.44pm
Pieces of Eight wrote:
drog wrote:
I live in London SE1 one of the most important and first class cities in the world not Vienna which bears no resemblence.

Vienna always scores very high in the "most liveable cities" index, way ahead of London.

According to Mercer Consulting last December, "Vienna has again been named as the 'best city' in the world". London's number 38 - perhaps that's what Drog meant by "Vienna bears no resemblence[sic] (to London)".

Having said that, the survey puts London well behind Honolulu, Ottawa and Wellington, none of which I'd like to live in, so their criteria might not be the same as mine.

@Phoenix - in 2011, the proportion of social housing in Southwark (Southwark LA owned + Other LA owned [mostly City of London & Lewisham)+ Registered Housing Association) was 43.4%, down from 54.5% in 2001. In plain numbers, that's a reduction of nearly 7,000 social housing homes in ten years and an increase of 20,000 in the private sector over the same period. It's there on page 15 of the Housing Data I pointed to earlier.
Monday 21 January 2013 2.46pm
Its also a thread with 2 arguments going on simultaneously and becoming rather confused.

1. The discussion about the people who used (and a very few who still do) live on The Heygate Estate and what promises were afforded them and

2. Whether social housing and private (or free market as it has been referred to) housing is social engineering and whether this is a good thing.

Rolling through both discussions are also various debtaes about money/costs/value etc of all people involved in this extremely complex discusssion which will never be resolved because lots of people are coming at the different arguments and values from different sides of the "other" discussion.

That's my take on the discussion(s) so far anyway.
Monday 21 January 2013 2.46pm
Every day I go to work I am reminded of the film "Trading Places".
Monday 21 January 2013 3.00pm
I agree with phoenix that it is unlikely that we will reach a consesus. The problem is very complex indeed and whilst the level of emotional involvement of certain people posting on this forum is good for campaigning it might be in the way of being objective.

In Bankside (where I live) we have slighlty more than 50% social housing and one can argue that given this number there should be room for more private developments. But 5 years ago the % of social housing was significantly hihgher. I guess we all agree that the area will continue changing but at the moment it looks as if this change process is not managed well by the council.
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