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A Question regarding Trinity Square

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Saturday 25 May 2013 6.00pm
Around the time that the Trinity St./Square closure occurred I was living at the TBR end of Grange Rd., and on an 18 month secondment working at Becket House, Lambeth Palace Rd.
I would normally take the bus to work, but on occasion if I was late I'd hail a taxi in TBR.
The route would invariably be TBR to Bricklayers Arms, then Gt. Dover St., left into Trinity St., then either Webber St., through side streets to Waterloo Rd. then through the station toward St. Thomas's Hospital, or left BHS, right into Borough Rd. right into Lancaster St. left Webber then as before.
One Monday, after a hazy Sunday evening's excess of Pinot Grigio I left late and hailed a taxi.
When we got to B.Arms roundabout the driver said, "Do you fancy the Elephant, Westminster Bridge Rd., or do you want to chance Gt. Dover St. to the Borough?"
"What's wrong with the Trinity St. route?" I asked.
"Have you been out of the country for a month or two", he said, "it's been closed off for ages."
Okay, it was a minor irritant to me, but hey, I'm all for democracy, if more people wanted it shut off than wanted it open, so be it.
But I think if there had been a public vote on it, (and no reason why there should have been), I think the good burghers of Trinity St./Sq. would have lost the day.
Saturday 25 May 2013 6.32pm
Pardon me for veering off route a tad here, but it's connected.
A few years back the extremely well heeled, (and connected no doubt), residents of Montpelier Sq. SW7 had Kensington & Chelsea council do the same thing, and close off the Square as a through route unless you were resident there.
This was a short cut from Kensington Rd. to Brompton Rd., giving access to Harrods and Beauchamp Place, Pont St., Sloane St. etc.
The alternative was Trevor St., Trevor Sq., Lancelot Place to Brompton Rd., but the right turn there was difficult due to weight of traffic.
After a great deal of noise was made to the council, and also to City Hall, by the Licenced Taxi Drivers Association, and other aggrieved parties, the barriers eventually came down.
I'm not suggesting for one minute that Trinity St. could be re-opened, as I don't drive a Black Cab any more, I'm not that interested.
Saturday 25 May 2013 7.00pm
Jan the old one wrote:
I think I was told that the then head teacher of Eton lived in one of the houses end carried a lot of sway in the decision to close the street? True or not I don't know..

I would love to see a picture of the council committee from that time. There must have been so much forelock tugging going on that they would have been bald as coots!
Sunday 26 May 2013 9.49pm
Pieces of Eight wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Chip. Shoulder. Unsubstantiated allegation.

Not an allegation, more of an observational assumption .
Assumption = unsubstantiated allegation

...if you press it, they will come.
Monday 27 May 2013 12.36am
Ivanhoe wrote:
Pieces of Eight wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Chip. Shoulder. Unsubstantiated allegation.

Not an allegation, more of an observational assumption .
Assumption = unsubstantiated allegation

How about an hypothesis? I'll just go through words until you find one that's acceptable. It's a bank holiday so we've got all day. A lot of the replies to my original post would seem to suggest that more well-heeled residents get a better response from the Council. However, I am always prepared to listen. I may even post the council's reply to my enquiry, if it's interesting enough. Night night Ivanhoe.
Monday 27 May 2013 7.25am
Ivanhoe is right, we don't know the full story here and it is all too easy to jump to conclusions. I lived near to Trinity Square when it was closed following temporary measures. It seemed quite a sensible move to me at the time I remember, though that was probably because I had a fantasy about living in one of those houses and they seemed even nicer with the road all quiet lol :-).

I do think the class issue is interesting but this needs to be unpicked further. *Big generalisation about to occur* The middle classes tend to be more vocal and also (*in general*) better organised. I don't think it is simply that they get their way *just because* they are middle class (although I'm sure this happens sometimes) but rather because they make more noise as a group. I see class playing out all the time in the health service for instance. Middle class patients and their families do not automatically receive better treatment, not at all, but they are much more vocal (and often know how to work a system better) and as a result can sometimes get advantageous treatment. On the flip side I have been shocked at how passive some working class patients and their families can be, even when things are clearly not being handled well.
Tuesday 28 May 2013 11.09am
Pieces of Eight wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Pieces of Eight wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Chip. Shoulder. Unsubstantiated allegation.

Not an allegation, more of an observational assumption .
Assumption = unsubstantiated allegation

How about an hypothesis? I'll just go through words until you find one that's acceptable.
For my money, you should go ahead and make as many assumptions, hypotheses, guesses, hunches, or conjectures as you like. I find it a bit off to present them as facts, though.

...if you press it, they will come.
Tuesday 28 May 2013 12.35pm
Jan the old one wrote:
I think I was told that the then head teacher of Eton lived in one of the houses end carried a lot of sway in the decision to close the street? True or not I don't know..

Well, I don't know if it's true or not either, Jan, and I've lived in Trinity Church Square for about 12 years, and just round the corner in Falmouth Road on part of the same Trinity estate for 12 years before that. I've certainly not met the Head Master of Eton here, nor anyone else from Eton as far as I know.

I don't know the details of how the case for the closure of Trinity Street to through traffic was finally won - I know it took a lot of time and a lot of discussion. Perhaps the fact that it's a Conservation Area had something to do with it!

But yes, we do have a very active and well-organized residents' association.

I do remember the relief, once the closure took place, of at last being able to cross Trinity Street on my way to work in the morning or home in the evening without facing the perils of the tidal flow of fast-moving traffic (long before the 20mph speed limit came in on so many side roads) - westbound in the morning and eastbound in the evening, as motorists avoided Great Dover Street and the Borough tube station junction. I also remember how many times previously I'd sat on the number 21 bus as it edged its way up Great Dover Street from the Roebuck in the perpetual morning traffic jam - no wonder so many drivers shot off through Trinity Street instead. But the congestion charge came in during the trial period of the street closure - result - the traffic jam vanished overnight. So presumably Trinity Street lost its value as a regular cut-off.

And there's nothing unique about it. There hardly seems to be a side-street left in north Southwark that doesn't have some sort of traffic control in place - one-way; blocked off at one end; narrowed in the middle; humps; speed limits; cycle paths etc. See the previous discussion on this site about the closure of Mint Street to through traffic - I don't think we need a repeat of the pro and anti discussion that appeared there. But my view is that main roads are for through traffic; residential streets are for the residents.
Tuesday 28 May 2013 1.22pm
With you John on the crawling mythical beast that used to run along great dover street, called a 21..on par with myths and legends..i.e. it may well appear before a 30/40 minute wait! My boss never believed that i left the same time for work each day..

I just wish Bartholomew street had a well organised residents association, wish the council could close the new kent road end of bartholomew street as the traffic swings into it at great speed trying to avoid the 10 second delay at the lights, only by the gfrace of God that an accident has now happened as traffic has to swerve to avoid the normal row of coaches parked there. Bartholomew street houses are as old if not older than the ones in trinity street, and even if you live in the flats it still constitutes a residential street, and anywhere in london the same applies..

The Eton bit I was told by a resident who lived there at the time, so it had a grain of truth in it I suppose!
Tuesday 28 May 2013 1.49pm
John C wrote:
...there's nothing unique about it. There hardly seems to be a side-street left in north Southwark that doesn't have some sort of traffic control in place - one-way; blocked off at one end; narrowed in the middle; humps; speed limits; cycle paths etc.

Precisely. Is anyone accusing the residents of Tabard Street, Pilgrimage Street, etc of wielding undue influence?

...if you press it, they will come.
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