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A Question regarding Trinity Square

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Tuesday 28 May 2013 1.57pm
Ooooh Jan - the class card....
The Trinity and Newington Residents Association is just very well organised and has campaigned effectively on a variety of local issues - not just ones directly affecting the square - for many many years.
As Nigel above said - organisation and extreme persistence is the way forward.
Tuesday 28 May 2013 7.09pm
Jan the old one wrote:
I just wish Bartholomew street had a well organised residents association, wish the council could close the new kent road end of bartholomew street as the traffic swings into it at great speed trying to avoid the 10 second delay at the lights, only by the gfrace of God that an accident has now happened as traffic has to swerve to avoid the normal row of coaches parked there. Bartholomew street houses are as old if not older than the ones in trinity street, and even if you live in the flats it still constitutes a residential street, and anywhere in london the same applies..

I would have thought you had a good case, Jan. I don't know Bartholomew Street very well - I've only admired the row of houses at the south end (I see from Southwark council's website that they are Listed Grade II, just like Trinity Church Square - and as you say, they're even a few years older than those in the square- see http://maps.southwark.gov.uk/connect/southwark.jsp and tick 'Listed buildings' - then click on the green smudge that appears in Bartholomew Street).

The street surely shouldn't be used as a short cut between the New Kent Road and Great Dover Street, if that is what the traffic is doing. On the other hand, the Council have obviously given it some thought, with a 20 mph speed limit, and the widened pavement at the south end to create a sharper corner for traffic turning in from the New Kent Road - which should in theory slow it down!

And I've never understood, from your previous posts on the subject, just why the coaches have to park there. I presume they come in at one end and out the other? (I doubt there'd be room for them to turn if one end of the street was blocked?)
Tuesday 28 May 2013 9.17pm
I had a look at the map John and remembered an old highway man telling me that the tram lines were still under new kent road..(not the dick turpin kind!) I remember going to John Harvard library years ago and finding out that the houses were not here is 1813 but by 1817 had been built. In one Greenwoods map it was called Portland Place, then at some time or another was renamed Warner Street, which oddly enough in the fifties/sixties was still here I am sure and also went in an L shape, approximately where the side of the school is near the subway. At the end of the gardens many moons ago pre-school playground there was a cemetery and a small chapel, that is why when in the garden and the children were in the playground they could peer over the fence, because of the thousands of bodies buried there, extra soil was brought in so there are many 'layers' of poor souls at rest there.

As a matter of fact when I first moved here the lady who lived in the house for fifty years, old Sophie told me not to worry about things when I dug up human bones at the end of the garden as she was always digging them up!

The coaches come in from both ends and provided they are not parked all night and don't have their engines running, I don't worry too much but when the vans from CYC come flying around the corner like a bat out of well...hell..sounds like a meatloaf song! and in the evening I wish there was a counter thingymajig accross the road to count them and speed cameras, and built out pavement dont stop some vehicles thwey have been known to cut over it!

My son sent me a link to some photos of bartholomew street ..there was one car parked outside I think..1962ish..

sorry did not mean to hi-jack the Trinity street issue!
Wednesday 29 May 2013 10.55am
John I agree about the "For or Anti" road closure. I walk through Trinity Church & Merrick Sq from Borough High Street end to Great Dover Street to & from work and have done for the last 4 years almost daily and that stretch is a haven I tell you ! It's gorgeous to cut through and see those lovely streets, enjoying looking at the square and the plants & hear the birds before I step out again onto the main roads either side. It's only a small stretch, and as you say I have friends on the Peabody Estate in Marshalsea Road who by their campaign petition to the Council recently managed to close Mint Street side street so all power to locals who get their act together for better living conditions I say !
Wednesday 29 May 2013 2.44pm
MickyDee wrote:
John I agree about the "For or Anti" road closure. I walk through Trinity Church & Merrick Sq from Borough High Street end to Great Dover Street to & from work and have done for the last 4 years almost daily and that stretch is a haven I tell you ! It's gorgeous to cut through and see those lovely streets, enjoying looking at the square and the plants & hear the birds before I step out again onto the main roads either side. It's only a small stretch, and as you say I have friends on the Peabody Estate in Marshalsea Road who by their campaign petition to the Council recently managed to close Mint Street side street so all power to locals who get their act together for better living conditions I say !

Which kind of challenges the assertion that working class people can't get vocal or organised,as does my instance in an earlier thread which involved Lancaster TA who are still going strong,it seems these "chip on shoulder unsubstantiated allegations" work both ways.
Wednesday 29 May 2013 3.23pm
Not sure anyone said 'working class people can't get vocal or organised' - of course, they can - but that *in general* the middle class will frequently rally the troops more readily than the working class and as a result effect change in their neighborhoods more often. But it's an empirical question really and we don't have the data: a couple of examples ain't gonna cut the mustard. Regardless, I am with MickyDee on enjoying that walk past Trinity square, even if it is unlikely I'll ever have a house there!
Wednesday 29 May 2013 4.06pm
boroughonian wrote:
Which kind of challenges the assertion that working class people can't get vocal or organised....
Indeed. Except that no one's made that assertion.

...if you press it, they will come.
Wednesday 29 May 2013 5.12pm
Ivanhoe wrote:
boroughonian wrote:
Which kind of challenges the assertion that working class people can't get vocal or organised....
Indeed. Except that no one's made that assertion.

Maybe not but someone came very close,twice,and further unsubstatiated matters.

anyway I once got run over in mint st as I was dashing out of douglas headed toeards the shop for a 1/4 of merrymaids so hats off to those residents.
Thursday 30 May 2013 7.19am
If the someone you are referring to is me Boroughonian then do say so. I'm not sure but - for the record here - let me be clear that I am not making a point that the middle classes do things better. I come from working class stock myself and am proud of it (first in my family to go to university blah blah blah), though probably wouldn't be classified as such any more (depending on how people want to define these things). I get increasingly frustrated that there are large sections of society that seem to be having a tougher time than others because they don't work the system as well (for a variety of reasons), I see it all the time in my work and have extended this observation (with a few personal experiences) out to neighborhood planning in this thread. Of course, I have been making generalisations, I make that point again and again, but they have been said in a way that I thought was constructive and so not in need of policing, disagreement maybe, but not policing (especially given so much of what is said on this website is just someone's honest opinion guvnor!). Anyway that's enough from me, best of luck to anyone who succeeds in their campaign to make their neighborhood a better place.
Thursday 30 May 2013 1.05pm
Here, here. And the residents got shirty when motorbikers continued to use the road-hence the concrete blocks arrived soon after the closure. Basically they have achieved what amounts to a private road while wanting the other benefits of living in central London and pity the poor neighbours (in council flats) on Great Dover Street who ended up with all the displaced traffic. I suppose it helps that a councillor or two (who were also part of the governing party at the time) lived there and were able to help make sure the supporting evidence for the case was fit for purpose
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