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Elephant & Castle Northern Roundabout - latest plans

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Current: 12 of 22
Friday 21 March 2014 7.30am
I'm definitely a zig zagger (including now if that means avoiding the subways), but fit and strong? Not always. For at least 6 months I was unable to reach the shopping centre at all. Doing that would have meant using steps or a ramp and both were utterly impractical for me unless I actually wanted to spend several minutes with the world watching me clutching the handrail as I gingerly took each painful step. What I would have given then for the disgusting subways to be gone and replaced by nice, flat crossings.
Friday 21 March 2014 3.51pm
I hate the ramps too, rather struggle up the steps slowly and painfully, and what I find so lovely is the offers of help I get from young people.
Friday 21 March 2014 4.46pm
If the ramps can be removed, with access only by stairs, and level crossings for those needing a flat surface - you could still reclaim the vast bulk of the considerable surface space the subways use and thus potentially subway lovers can continue their morlockian 'express' routes while we surface lovers enjoy the pleasant new public space.

Are the ramps a red line for the opposition or would stairs do?
Friday 21 March 2014 5.10pm
Stairs would do for many of course, though not all (e.g. buggy users). Stairs only was the 1911 design and is currently the case at Piccadilly.

There is a vast amount of road space that could be reclaimed without taking in the ramps.

As for the 'pleasant new public space'... don't be fooled. The 'artists' impressions' not only play with landmarks and perspectives but present something that is absolutely not designed or costed. It's wrong to use precious transport space at a congested junction for recreation.

jamesup wrote:
If the ramps can be removed, with access only by stairs, and level crossings for those needing a flat surface - you could still reclaim the vast bulk of the considerable surface space the subways use and thus potentially subway lovers can continue their morlockian 'express' routes while we surface lovers enjoy the pleasant new public space.
Are the ramps a red line for the opposition or would stairs do?
Friday 21 March 2014 5.48pm
boroughbloke wrote:
I'm definitely a zig zagger (including now if that means avoiding the subways), but fit and strong? Not always. For at least 6 months I was unable to reach the shopping centre at all. Doing that would have meant using steps or a ramp and both were utterly impractical for me unless I actually wanted to spend several minutes with the world watching me clutching the handrail as I gingerly took each painful step. What I would have given then for the disgusting subways to be gone and replaced by nice, flat crossings.
I don't know, boroughbloke - I'm temporarily walking with a stick, due to a sprained ankle, and I find the long ramp down from Newington Causeway to the subway direct to the shopping centre a godsend. Approaching as I do from the north, it's always been my natural route to the shops, and as long as the shopping centre survives I see no reason why that subway should be filled in just to serve some unexplained anti-subway agenda.

I'm not a regular user of the other subways, so won't comment on them - for some reason, although on my way to the Bakerloo line station I usually cross Newington Causeway by the subway, coming back I tend to cross at one or other pedestrian crossing; and London Road by the crossing, not the subway.

I've no particular fondness for the 'artworks', though they're an improvement on the graffiti that preceded them, and certainly wouldn't use them as an argument in favour of retaining the subways. Of course if the Council put up billboards on the subway walls instead (as in tube station subways), and charged for advertising, they might suddenly discover a financial incentive to retain the subways.
Friday 21 March 2014 9.08pm
Jamesup,

What's a morlockian? I must be dense this evening, never heard of it!
Friday 21 March 2014 10.09pm
HG Wells reference - the underworld people from the time machine
Saturday 22 March 2014 6.20am
I also bless the ramp from MCH to the shopping centre. If it's raining I can get there without getting wet. And it has to be better than standing breathing in carbon particulates.
Saturday 22 March 2014 9.11am
John C wrote:
I don't know, boroughbloke - I'm temporarily walking with a stick, due to a sprained ankle, and I find the long ramp down from Newington Causeway to the subway direct to the shopping centre a godsend.

Enabled people very often assume a ramp is the universal solution to mobility for the disabled, but this is a very distorted, enabled view of disability (be it temporary or permanent). With back problems, like mine, a ramp of the sort of gradient at E&C may as well have been a scree covered mountain slope. Basically, ascending or descending ramps put my foot into a position that would trigger instant and excruciating, back spasms (this is whilst taking industrial strength opiates). Steps, however painful and slow, were preferable since I could keep my foot at right angles to my leg. For obvious reasons anything on the flat was preferable.

Since getting to the shopping centre on foot, without encountering ramps and steps is to all intents impossible when coming from Newington Causeway, without some circuitous diversion, the shopping centre thus became off limits to me.

Similarly, the enabled think a ramp is an excellent solution to a wheelchair user. I'd love to see some of those on these boards, so beloved of the subways, try and push an adult up one of the ramps or control a chair going down one. I suspect none of them could actually propel themselves under their own steam up one, and they'd be utterly terrified if they tried to descend one under their own steam. This is one reason that the likes of TfL are so keen to get rid of them - they are a hindrence to mobility, not a help. It is very much worth noting that the subways as they are now configured would never get building regulations approval today on the basis that they are too steep and long for wheelchair users to ascend and way too dangerous to descend for wheelchair users (and thus other pedestrians because of the threat from wheelchairs). Without going down and counting the steps in a flight, I'd hazard a guess that the steps would not get building regs approval either.
Saturday 22 March 2014 9.56am
I'm sure it's not beyond even the bodgers at TfL to build subways that are DDA compliant and tick all necessary 21st century building regulations. They could even have shops down there or at the very least earn some ad revenue. Let's clarify, this campaign is not prioritising saving mural art work nor preserving a 1950s engineering design, it's about safety and pleasantness, and not having a longer more polluted journey. Subways need not be dingy confusing underworlds.

And as for using building regs or DDA compliance as a reason to demolish the subways, well while we're at it let's just demolish much of London too because it fails by this measure. The demolition hungry, almost vengeful fantastical picture painting by the subway slaters is a little short sighted, both economically and environmentally. Surely it's worth bothering to value infrastructure that's been invested in already and upgrade it if the alternative is a retrogressive step... slower, more polluted, more dangerous? This proposal will lead to more pedestrians requiring DDA compliance in their lives after the nasty accidents to come as more people cross The Ring road at surface level frustrated with indirect crossings and delays.

boroughbloke wrote:
John C wrote:
I don't know, boroughbloke - I'm temporarily walking with a stick, due to a sprained ankle, and I find the long ramp down from Newington Causeway to the subway direct to the shopping centre a godsend.

Enabled people very often assume a ramp is the universal solution to mobility for the disabled, but this is a very distorted, enabled view of disability (be it temporary or permanent). With back problems, like mine, a ramp of the sort of gradient at E&C may as well have been a scree covered mountain slope. Basically, ascending or descending ramps put my foot into a position that would trigger instant and excruciating, back spasms (this is whilst taking industrial strength opiates). Steps, however painful and slow, were preferable since I could keep my foot at right angles to my leg. For obvious reasons anything on the flat was preferable.

Since getting to the shopping centre on foot, without encountering ramps and steps is to all intents impossible when coming from Newington Causeway, without some circuitous diversion, the shopping centre thus became off limits to me.

Similarly, the enabled think a ramp is an excellent solution to a wheelchair user. I'd love to see some of those on these boards, so beloved of the subways, try and push an adult up one of the ramps or control a chair going down one. I suspect none of them could actually propel themselves under their own steam up one, and they'd be utterly terrified if they tried to descend one under their own steam. This is one reason that the likes of TfL are so keen to get rid of them - they are a hindrence to mobility, not a help. It is very much worth noting that the subways as they are now configured would never get building regulations approval today on the basis that they are too steep and long for wheelchair users to ascend and way too dangerous to descend for wheelchair users (and thus other pedestrians because of the threat from wheelchairs). Without going down and counting the steps in a flight, I'd hazard a guess that the steps would not get building regs approval either.
Current: 12 of 22

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