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Elephant & Castle Northern Roundabout - latest plans

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Current: 14 of 22
Thursday 27 March 2014 1.26pm
Years ago outside the Town Hall in Walworth Road, they had a poster stating how many accidents and fatalities involving children and adults, I think Southwark even had the luxury of a Road Safety Officer..now lost in the dim past! They used to have a policy of implementing traffic solutions according to accidents, ie, they could spend say 5000 for a broken arm or 20,000 for a death. Wonder how much they would pay for near misses in new kent road.!
Thursday 27 March 2014 4.30pm
Jan the old one wrote:
Luke, I would love to see Boris cross the crossing by driscoll house, pushing a wheelchair or pushcair holding a childs hand at the same time..7 seconds.

Me too! And the crossings near Meadow Row and Rodney Place are no better. I remain appalled that reducing green time for pedestrians (and removing pedestrian crossings) was an explicit commitment of our Mayor, and we are now experiencing its effects.

Richard - I don't doubt for a moment your commitment and conviction, but I can't see how it makes sense to undermine those who are disagreeing with you in this forum. I have a right to my opinion and you have one to yours. And in fact, apart from the subways, I would say we are pretty much in agreement about the proposals at the Elephant. But we differ in our view about how to put across a point of view effectively. Please try to be civil and keep to the point.
Thursday 27 March 2014 4.41pm
We're here having a debate, expressing our opinions, presumably trying to find a shared solution, criticising other opinions is part of the debate, particularly when they come from people with a recent record of formally proposing wacky unpopular ones for the area - those neighbourhood forum boundaries that chop up the Elephant down the middle are what I'm referring to and cast a great deal of doubt over your total rejection of renovating public space underground. It's great to hear that other than the subways you share the concerns about what's proposed, and I'm reassured you'll use your commitment and passion for the area to help get that message across too to others who may not quite see the tarmac, pollution and dangers for all the trees TfL has painted in their enchanting visualisations of Peter's Piazza.

Luke wrote:
... I can't see how it makes sense to undermine those who are disagreeing with you in this forum. I have a right to my opinion and you have one to yours. And in fact, apart from the subways, I would say we are pretty much in agreement about the proposals at the Elephant. But we differ in our view about how to put across a point of view effectively. Please try to be civil and keep to the point.
Zoe
Friday 28 March 2014 8.18am
I feel quite despairing having read all this, the new 'roundabout' is clearly just going to be rubbish. I feel really sad that TfL have a chance to make it better but will clearly fail.

As an aside, I am quite surprised anyone would campaign so vigorously for the subways. Only the fittest young men like such things, the rest of us use them because we are forced to. I would love to cycle through them though.
Friday 28 March 2014 8.57am
Zoe wrote:
Only the fittest young men like such things, the rest of us use them because we are forced to.
Zoe have you done a survey amongst users of the subway? Stopped to ask strangers why they're there, what they like or don't like? We have and the demographic breadth of the appeal of the subways, even in their grotty state now, would it seems shock you. And at the TfL consultations which this campaign has attended in full, we've met many more fans of them too. Versus slower journeys adjacent to more polluting traffic their appeal becomes even stronger. It'll be a tragedy if they all go because people can't see beyond the disgust in their noses and the misperceptions about safety.
Friday 28 March 2014 11.27am
I don't see why you would need to be fit to go through the subways. The ramps are not that steep. And although they look grim, I have never found the subways to be smelly. Anyone who has been in the Paris metro will understand what is a repulsive smell. In the 19 years I ahve lived in E&C, I have never witnessed any drug dealing either. However, for me, the worse bit are the homeless people (between St Georges Road and shopping centre). Although they are harmless, it just gives a dark vibe to the urban cold subways you just want to escape. They seem to have a determined slot, not staying more than a quarter of an hour( by the time I have finished my grocery shopping, another person has staken the spot). What would also improve the image is to overhaul the shabby market, full of detritus and tat. It looks more like a 3rd world country market than central London. If that was cleaned up with nice stands, the overall feeling of the area including the subways leading to it would be much improved.
Zoe
Friday 28 March 2014 1.54pm
I think people don't always understand that having a disability means even simple things can be a challenge. I need to take direct routes when I walk so I can limit the amount of walking I do. The ramps aren't steep but are a barrier if you have any walking difficulties.

Asking those who use the subways is a self selecting audience. I don't see why pedestrians are pushed underground when cars are allowed to dominate on the roundabout, we shouldn't have to accept this.

I have never found the subways dirty or full of drug dealers but I still don't want to use them, I also don't always come out where I intended, and from the sound of it other people have the same issues. Perhaps Richard could draw me a map!
Friday 28 March 2014 4.46pm
Zoe wrote:
Asking those who use the subways is a self selecting audience.
Which is why we don't just ask people who we meet in the subways.

Zoe wrote:
I don't see why pedestrians are pushed underground when cars are allowed to dominate on the roundabout, we shouldn't have to accept this.
Wouldn't it be nice if the cars went underground instead. But equally "why should pedestrians be forced to stand still by the side of the road and take longer to get from A to B and contribute to increased air pollution from stop start traffic when they could be moving and sheltered and quicker"?

Zoe wrote:
Perhaps Richard could draw me a map!
Which is why the very first thing we did in late 2012 when the campaign began was draw the first accurate map of the subways - because one doesn't exist, the few out there now are actually quite incorrect. Donwload it here: http://www.saveoursubways.org/walkingmaps.html
Friday 28 March 2014 5.47pm
For comments from the London Cycling Campaign see
http://lcc.org.uk/articles/we-urge-supporters-to-tell-transport-for-london-that-plans-for-elephant-and-castle-fail-to-provide-safe-passage-for-cycling

However, I note the quote: 'One of the good points of the plan is that the smelly, frightening pedestrian underpasses will be closed, returning pedestrians to street level, giving better access from the tube and bus stops to the shopping centre, colleges and leisure centres.' What do they know about it?
Friday 28 March 2014 6.03pm
If the subways are not practical for some people, they already have the option of using a few crossings at ground level if they are prepared to wait at the traffic lights and walk across the island and around the roundabout. It just takes way longer than the subways. What is really the difference with the new proposal, give or take 50 yards? People will have no other option but to cross the road at speed, so not so practical if you are not able to walk fast. And if you are going to the shopping centre, I don't think there are any entrances at ground level, you either have to go up or down ramps/stairs to get in.
I don't know at what level the new shopping centre (whenever that is built)is supposed to be accessed from, maybe that is also key to the subways destruction plan.
Current: 14 of 22

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