Connie, to help answer your questions take a look at our annotated version of TfL's document on pedestrian flow and also scrutinise their proposal and you'll see that not all crossings are the same... both in terms of how busy they are and how many lights you'll have to pass through. TfL also told us on Monday pedestrians would be given 6 secs of green man in most places but couldn't provide more details "it's too complicated" they said, which is perhaps worrying. And what is currently the busiest route will also become by far the slowest, 41% slower
Connie is right, people who don't like the subways have the option to cross over ground. But those of us who much MUCH prefer the subways are considered either nutters, or old fashioned, blockers of progress and the rest. I'm all for progress, but this plan is a complete b#lls up with absolutely no advantages to us, the residents of the Elephant and Castle.
Tomorrow (Thursday 3) Changify are hosting a roundabout mapping exercise at LSBU's Clarence Centre on London Road, at a unit near the new cafe temporarily known as The Trumpet. I'm there work shopping alternative proposals for the roundabout between 10 and 12.30. Do pop by, it'd be interesting to discuss them with anyone who has joined the debate here. Lyla and I shared the work shopping of them at the TfL drop in session on Saturday for four hours and have been discussing them with various stakeholders this week. If anyone can't make it but would like to meet up soon please get in touch [email protected] We'd like to put them out online by the end of this week.
Tomorrow (Thursday 3) Changify are hosting a roundabout mapping exercise at LSBU's Clarence Centre on London Road, at a unit near the new cafe temporarily known as The Trumpet. I'm there work shopping alternative proposals for the roundabout between 10 and 12.30. Do pop by, it'd be interesting to discuss them with anyone who has joined the debate here. Lyla and I shared the work shopping of them at the TfL drop in session on Saturday for four hours and have been discussing them with various stakeholders this week. If anyone can't make it but would like to meet up soon please get in touch. We'd like to put them out online by the end of this week.
Thought I'd come back to this one. I have been using the map Richard posted and have tried to use the tunnels more, to try to better understand people's views (if people feel strongly about something they generally have a point).
I still feel there are problems with them, however what is also clear is that the problems are as much about management than anything fundamental about the design. I do think the design of the roundabout is what drives people into the tunnels, but I can see that the tunnels could be much nicer and with better signage could be a good way of getting around, loath as I am for pedestrians to be the ones driven underground.
Now, I wonder if there is a way to get TfL to do what I've done and listen to people's point of view and go see for themselves. I suspect not!
I still managed to come out the wrong section occasionally, what's that all about. I think there's a black hole down there that deposits people in the wrong tunnel (I mean, what other explanation could there be).
Thanks Zoe for giving the map a go and being open to a different perspective.
A few updates for this thread.
Alternative Proposal 1 launched a week or so ago, the result of a lot of conversations in the campaigning against the bodge. I'm sure it could be improved upon still and other more radical approaches could be drawn up (I'd gladly help work on these too), but by simply taking a starting point of (1) considering the wider context of routs and places, (2) not trying to squeeze a piazza in (which neither TfL, Southwark or Delancey want to take responsibility for maintaining) and (3) not applying TfL's dogma since 2009 of obliterating all subways whatever the context, it becomes a lot easier to make it safer and nicer without being more congested and polluted. And some of it could be done very soon.
I can only speak from experience of the redesign of the southern roundabout. Previously the subways allowed passage for pedestrians which unhindered by traffic. Now to cross from St Mary's park to the shopping centre requires either crossing the dual carriageway by the Thai restaurant, or the long way round via Newington Butts and Walworth Road.
By the Thai restaurant the pedestrian crossings are not phased in sequence and require milling around on the central island until the lights change again. Crossing via Newington Butts and Walworth Road the lights are the similarly uncoordinated requiring a lengthy pause on the central island whilst traffic from Walworth Road and then the north passes, followed by more waiting to cross Walworth Road.
Consequentially this adds probably several minutes to travelling time and results in people (me included) playing a game of human "frogger" between the islands, ignoring the pedestrian lights. TfL have little to offer the pedestrian in terms of improvements - these are all aimed at "improving" road traffic flow.
If I have a vote, I would keep the subways for those who want an alternative the above ground routes.
CRIME STATS finally revealed of subways vs surface.
For all those faithful believers in the hell that leaves beneath our streets, I'm sorry to say it's really just a myth, if you measure hell by crime that is rather than just grime.
The Met Police provided this data via an FOI request:
978 incidents at surface
19 in subways (none were categorised as serious)
For the 3 years to May 2013 (same time period as TfL's collision data).
Surface = within 50m of the junction and outdoors.
And remember the subways are busy too, over 3,500 in one hour of rush hour.
So those fools who say "a mugging a week" really are fools.
Perceptions can be fixed without demolition. What's important is that even in their dilapidated and poorly signposted state the subways are not an environment that makes crime more likely than at street level... arguably it makes it less likely.
Meanwhile Lyla and I did a good 45 min stint of campaign leafletting in rush hour this morning, lots of good conversations too. If anyone would like to join in on Monday or Tuesday next week please get in touch with [email protected]