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20 mph speed limit not for Bikes

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Tuesday 29 July 2014 7.14pm
eDWaRD WooDWaRD wrote:
...Don't know at what level but I don't see a huge amount of motorists breaking rules (I started paying more attention a while ago) and those that I do see are usually being stopped.

Edward, perhaps it depends when/where you're making observations. I cross Hyde Park Corner twice a day using the Toucan crossings. There, any pedestrian or cyclist who insisted on exercising their prerogative to set off promptly when the green man/bike light appeared would be fortunate indeed to get all the way across the interchange without getting mowed down, probably by multiple vehicles. Observing motor vehicles over my whole commute across central London, I'd say that exceeding speed limits - where traffic permits - is commonplace (including the roads which already have 20 mph speed limits). And stopping in the cycle reservoir is quite usual, especially for motor bikes and scooters, lots of whom will filter through traffic specifically to take up a position in the reservoir. I very rarely see enforcement activity.

eDWaRD WooDWaRD wrote:
It just occurred to me how absurd it is that we are discussing speed limits for cyclists while the problem of a small but very dominant and oppressive minority of cyclists endanger other road users' safety

...which made me think how absurd it is that so much negative comment has been made here about the behaviour of cyclists given that on the roads of London:
(a) In 2013 there were 5,181 pedestrian casualties (fatal, serious and slight) of which 227 (4.3%) involved bicycles. 3,282 (63%) involved cars. (Of course, this says nothing about cause or fault.) tfl 2014
(b) In 2009 (the latest year for which I could find figures broken down in this way) there were 88 pedestrian fatalities of which none involved pedal cycles, and 967 serious pedestrian casualties of which 31 (3.2%) involved bikes. The corresponding figures for cars: 62 (70%) and 618 (64%). tfl 2010

As you previously mentioned, Edward, it would be good to look for "constructive suggestions in terms of how to prevent accidents". Then I would respectfully propose a focus on two groups of road users: those who are most vulnerable, and those who present the greatest hazard to the former.

Sorry that was quite a long post.

By the way, I do drive a car too. At least I would if the damn thing would start. Can anyone lend me a battery charger? ;-)
Tuesday 29 July 2014 7.36pm
Sandgrown Dave wrote:
eDWaRD WooDWaRD wrote:
...Don't know at what level but I don't see a huge amount of motorists breaking rules (I started paying more attention a while ago) and those that I do see are usually being stopped.

Edward, perhaps it depends when/where you're making observations. I cross Hyde Park Corner twice a day using the Toucan crossings. There, any pedestrian or cyclist who insisted on exercising their prerogative to set off promptly when the green man/bike light appeared would be fortunate indeed to get all the way across the interchange without getting mowed down, probably by multiple vehicles. Observing motor vehicles over my whole commute across central London, I'd say that exceeding speed limits - where traffic permits - is commonplace (including the roads which already have 20 mph speed limits). And stopping in the cycle reservoir is quite usual, especially for motor bikes and scooters, lots of whom will filter through traffic specifically to take up a position in the reservoir. I very rarely see enforcement activity.

eDWaRD WooDWaRD wrote:
It just occurred to me how absurd it is that we are discussing speed limits for cyclists while the problem of a small but very dominant and oppressive minority of cyclists endanger other road users' safety

...which made me think how absurd it is that so much negative comment has been made here about the behaviour of cyclists given that on the roads of London:
(a) In 2013 there were 5,181 pedestrian casualties (fatal, serious and slight) of which 227 (4.3%) involved bicycles. 3,282 (63%) involved cars. (Of course, this says nothing about cause or fault.) tfl 2014
(b) In 2009 (the latest year for which I could find figures broken down in this way) there were 88 pedestrian fatalities of which none involved pedal cycles, and 967 serious pedestrian casualties of which 31 (3.2%) involved bikes. The corresponding figures for cars: 62 (70%) and 618 (64%). tfl 2010

As you previously mentioned, Edward, it would be good to look for "constructive suggestions in terms of how to prevent accidents". Then I would respectfully propose a focus on two groups of road users: those who are most vulnerable, and those who present the greatest hazard to the former.

Sorry that was quite a long post.

By the way, I do drive a car too. At least I would if the damn thing would start. Can anyone lend me a battery charger? ;-)

Pedestrian subways?....Oh
Tuesday 29 July 2014 7.42pm
Sandgrown Dave wrote:
As you previously mentioned, Edward, it would be good to look for "constructive suggestions in terms of how to prevent accidents". Then I would respectfully propose a focus on two groups of road users: those who are most vulnerable, and those who present the greatest hazard to the former.

It wasn't until I started walking my children to school that I became aware of what goes on on in traffic. Of course I had my own experiences, driving cycling riding a motorbike etc, but somehow I took those in my stride. When topics like this fist started popping up on SE1, I joined in with a real anger directed at red-light jumping cyclists, because they were the greatest hazard to my children, who back then were most vulnerable. It was frustrating, because you try and teach them how to behave in traffic, e.g. when to cross the road only to be confronted with reckless cyclists that made everything you taught them practically useless. Selfishly perhaps, now that my children are teenagers, I have relented a bit, but I still rage at red light jumpers, just like I rage at drivers on mobiles, or anyone else that behaves selfishly and therefore dangerously. People can drag out statistics and figures from wherever they like, I tell it as I see it and I see a huge lack of responsibility. You say "focus on 2 groups" in some cases, those groups overlap, depending on the traffic situation. Bikers are extremely vulnerable, as are cyclists, but in my opinion, the most vulnerable people are pedestrians and replacing responsibility with self-victimisation by some road users (that includes drivers as well as cyclists,I don't find bikers that bad, but I am sure someone will correct me) contributes to the status quo. I don't care what the cycle/pedestrian fatality rate is compared to car/pedestrian, what every group should be concerned about is what they can do to bring that rate down to zero. Finger pointing is not an option.
Zoe
Tuesday 29 July 2014 8.54pm
I totally agree Edward, but don't you think that the current hatred directed at cyclists is just an excuse for car drivers to deny their own behaviour.

I am still astounded that people go on about car drivers not really breaking the law and being stopped by the police if they do. I am acutely aware that as a car driver I can pretty much do what I want and get away with it, whereas I have been stopped numerous times on my bike (while breaking no laws, I break many more laws as a driver, because I can get away with it).

Ultimately the biggest problem is that people are inconsiderate, which is really nothing to do with transport.

Sandgrown Dave, buy a new battery. In my experience it's worth the cash!
Tuesday 29 July 2014 10.24pm
Zoe wrote:
I totally agree Edward, but don't you think that the current hatred directed at cyclists is just an excuse for car drivers to deny their own behaviour.
Ultimately the biggest problem is that people are inconsiderate, which is really nothing to do with transport.

Yes, I am sure that is there too. Not all drivers though :) And I think a lot is frustration rather than hatred (I hope so!).
Wednesday 30 July 2014 8.04am
eDWaRD WooDWaRD wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Not really. If you look at the HC, the "oh-I-couldn't-stop-because-I'd-cause-a-pile-up-behind-me" excuse is really drafted such that it's an exceptional provision for an extremely exceptional circumstance.
I might have a look at the HC to refresh my memory, but in practice, I think it's not that easy to enforce. Reminds me a bit of the off-side rule. But I do think the amber light is a good example to measure people's attitudes. Re cyclists and red light: I agree. I do get angry at the ones that see you and decide to go anyway, and the ones that don't see you 'cause they're not paying attention to you (this always irks me at the traffic lights on SBR and Marshalsea Road. where cyclists on SBR heading towards Southwark Street are too busy looking at traffic coming from MR to pay attention to the green pedestrian lights. It's the opposite attitude of the ones described by Guy Street when approaching amber lights, it's inconsiderate, selfish and dangerous). Otherwise, fine, I am all for them jumping when it's safe.
I'm reasonably confident that if someone goes into the back of you because you stop suddenly, regardless of the reason (changing traffic lights, kitten in the road etc) the fault lies entirely with them for not leaving adequate stopping distance between their vehicle and yours.
Wednesday 30 July 2014 10.13am
eDWaRD WooDWaRD wrote:
Zoe wrote:
I totally agree Edward, but don't you think that the current hatred directed at cyclists is just an excuse for car drivers to deny their own behaviour.
Ultimately the biggest problem is that people are inconsiderate, which is really nothing to do with transport.

Yes, I am sure that is there too. Not all drivers though :) And I think a lot is frustration rather than hatred (I hope so!).

Just face it, you are prejudiced and are just persecuting the current "out group", it is a well known psychological condition :-)

Looks like Edmund King was talking about people like , errr you! Happy to help.

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/cyclist-hatred-is-almost-like-racial-discrimination-says-aa-prez/013935
Wednesday 30 July 2014 10.15am
boroughonian wrote:
Sandgrown Dave wrote:
eDWaRD WooDWaRD wrote:
...Don't know at what level but I don't see a huge amount of motorists breaking rules (I started paying more attention a while ago) and those that I do see are usually being stopped.

Edward, perhaps it depends when/where you're making observations. I cross Hyde Park Corner twice a day using the Toucan crossings. There, any pedestrian or cyclist who insisted on exercising their prerogative to set off promptly when the green man/bike light appeared would be fortunate indeed to get all the way across the interchange without getting mowed down, probably by multiple vehicles. Observing motor vehicles over my whole commute across central London, I'd say that exceeding speed limits - where traffic permits - is commonplace (including the roads which already have 20 mph speed limits). And stopping in the cycle reservoir is quite usual, especially for motor bikes and scooters, lots of whom will filter through traffic specifically to take up a position in the reservoir. I very rarely see enforcement activity.

eDWaRD WooDWaRD wrote:
It just occurred to me how absurd it is that we are discussing speed limits for cyclists while the problem of a small but very dominant and oppressive minority of cyclists endanger other road users' safety

...which made me think how absurd it is that so much negative comment has been made here about the behaviour of cyclists given that on the roads of London:
(a) In 2013 there were 5,181 pedestrian casualties (fatal, serious and slight) of which 227 (4.3%) involved bicycles. 3,282 (63%) involved cars. (Of course, this says nothing about cause or fault.) tfl 2014
(b) In 2009 (the latest year for which I could find figures broken down in this way) there were 88 pedestrian fatalities of which none involved pedal cycles, and 967 serious pedestrian casualties of which 31 (3.2%) involved bikes. The corresponding figures for cars: 62 (70%) and 618 (64%). tfl 2010

As you previously mentioned, Edward, it would be good to look for "constructive suggestions in terms of how to prevent accidents". Then I would respectfully propose a focus on two groups of road users: those who are most vulnerable, and those who present the greatest hazard to the former.

Sorry that was quite a long post.

By the way, I do drive a car too. At least I would if the damn thing would start. Can anyone lend me a battery charger? ;-)

Pedestrian subways?....Oh

Oh dear, not always that safe!
http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7756
Wednesday 30 July 2014 11.32am
Oh dear, not always that safe!
http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7756

Conspiracy! ;)
Wednesday 30 July 2014 12.01pm
I hear the new proposals for the E&C subways include use as a sideways-parked car park. The photo linked to shows how a BMW fits neatly into one of the spaces.
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