London SE1 community website

New E&C road layout appears to be working?

Join in these discussions today! Log in or register.
Current: 10 of 22
Friday 15 January 2016 8.06pm
Thanks Jackie.

Back in the mid 00s when the regen of Elephant & Castle was more environmentally ambitious there was a plan of laying a network of multiple services underground around the area, for which the subways would have saved some of the effort for excavation. It was yet another positive plan the current Labour administration axed back in 2011 in their haste to see development here, however shoddy the deal and legacy. SE1 reported on the axing of MUSCO here: http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/5052

jackie rokotnitz wrote:
I seem to remember that we were getting a whole lot of guff about the underpasses being used for some integrated infrastructure thingy....which seems to have been completely fabricated. And these ruddy piazzas are slippery and only good for litter and noise. I despair.
Saturday 16 January 2016 9.22am
More new fences planned alongside the Metropolitan Tabernacle to stop pedestrians drifting into the cycle lane:

https://planning.southwark.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_STHWR_DCAPR_9564331

Editor of the London SE1 website.
Subscribe to our SE1 Direct weekly newsletter.
Saturday 16 January 2016 9.42am
To be fair to TfL on this, the plan for new pedestrian guard rails here has been in place since at least Feb 2015 if not earlier, as Stephen Witherford (TfL's contracted architect) was pressing them for the need and even sketched up an impression of what they would look like here in a TfL spec doc I procured back then. I've posted a sketch by Stephen of the new guard rails on Twitter here But why's it taken a year for TfL to make the planning application? That's crazy.

But I expect we will see unplanned reactive measures to deal with the clumsy creation of new dangers, much like the new pedestrian guard rails installed on the crossing of Newington Causeway at the start of the year.
Saturday 16 January 2016 9.50am
This is as close to a confession that the 'New Elephant' project has failed the common people as we are likely to get. Shame on TfL for their arrogance, and failure to listen to the people who live here, and shame on those who failed to support local people in pointing out the short-comings of their ridiculous plans.

The fencing of pedestrians will further reduce the (albeit limited) pleasure and amenity of walking by the facade of the Tabernacle to little more than a cattle drive.

As Ella F put it:
'Don't fence me in'
Saturday 16 January 2016 12.28pm
Do Tfl read this Forum? I'd be interested to know.
Saturday 16 January 2016 7.39pm
jackie rokotnitz wrote:
Do Tfl read this Forum? I'd be interested to know.
Do TfL read?
Sunday 17 January 2016 1.48pm
graham wrote:
...
The fencing of pedestrians will further reduce the (albeit limited) pleasure and amenity of walking by the facade of the Tabernacle to little more than a cattle drive.
...

One of the good things the current GLA administration has done for pedestrians is the wholesale removal of pedestrian fencing. For example, the area around St George's Circus was immeasurably better as a result of this.

It beggars belief that TfL, having recognised this London-wide, has then implemented a brand new scheme in E&C that necessitates the caging of pedestrians.

If pedestrians are straying into the cycle lanes, that's because the pavements aren't wide enough, or the provided crossings aren't on pedestrian desire lines.

In either case, it's because pedestrian needs (ie those of the majority of users of the area) were the least important in the consideration of the planners - if the pavements are too narrow, it's because too much space is given to motorised traffic. And if the crossings are not good, it's because too much importance was given to smoothing traffic flow through the junction, rather than 'place making' for people using the area.
Sunday 17 January 2016 2.01pm
I'm still trying to figure out what is happening on NC - there is from the MCH side, a pavement, then a bike lane, then another pavement which borders a single lane road with a new bus stop on it. So the buses will be stopping in single lane traffic ? Also there is very dangerous dropped kerbs on either side of the bike lane.

The bike lane crosess the entrance to MCH, but when cars exit in and out of the building they have to approach the road in order to barge into the tailback. However they then become stationary across the bike lane. If the vehicle did not do this and waited back then no one would ever let them as they are not apparent.

Then outside weatherspoons we have a ridiculous mass of paving.

The traffic from NC approaching the northern rounadbout has a single lane, which then becomes two. However, trying to get two vehicles next to each other is not easy. Then the odd bit is as the traffic moves and come to the first mid roundabout junction only about 5m on the builders have made a mistake and narrowed the lanes, so a bus for exaple and a car cannot go through at the same time as there is not enough room.

I wrote an email to Patrick Kelly, no repsonse / acknowledgement.
Sunday 17 January 2016 2.01pm
Just back from Sunday lunch in Bermonsey. SUNDAY. And the traffic is backed up in every direction. They are having a LAUGH. This is one of the biggest cock ups ever. And as everyone agrees, we told them so. I personally told Peter John "Either send the traffic overground and the people underground, or vice versa. But sending EVERYONE overground will be a disaster". But the thing is....Now What?????
Sunday 17 January 2016 2.14pm
I think it's helpful to try and not make categorical generalisations about bits of transport infrastructure, every junction is different which in turn influences how people use it. Like subways, pedestrian guard rails have been demonised in recent years while their absence has played a part in some tragedies...

Your recollection of fences at pre-superhighway St George's Circus doesn't match my photographic record.

In addition TfL's removal of pedestrian guard rails at the crossing of Garden Row where it meet St George's Road was within weeks claimed to contribute to the death of a small boy who ran into the crossing, according to his parents quoted in the press. TfL's removal of pedestrian guard rails in the spring of 2011 from the centre of the link road at E&C also encouraged so much wandering across the dual carriageway that they replaced them by the end of the summer.

The research study TfL commissioned on which they based their policy for removing guard rails wherever possible (much like the eagerness to remove subways wherever possible, even if pedestrian journeys are lengthened) presented far from conclusive evidence. They didn't find a compelling case for their contribution to danger (e.g. cyclists crushed against them in collisions), nor for their safety benefits... although the report was commissioned from the department run by Ben Plowden who is preoccupied with the aesthetic appearance of streetscapes (vistas of stone preferably), rather than their function.

Pedestrian guard rails are a valuable tool in the array of options for transport engineers, they just need using with consideration rather than erecting indiscriminately in places where the need to corral pedestrians is minimal.

Given TfL's general dislike of guard rails, their come-back in the new design in places they were not needed before just shows how far their vision on paper turned out to be out of sync with the reality of human behaviour and risk taking. They must really be anxious to have put them in place.




Rambling Phil wrote:
graham wrote:
...
The fencing of pedestrians will further reduce the (albeit limited) pleasure and amenity of walking by the facade of the Tabernacle to little more than a cattle drive.
...

One of the good things the current GLA administration has done for pedestrians is the wholesale removal of pedestrian fencing. For example, the area around St George's Circus was immeasurably better as a result of this.

It beggars belief that TfL, having recognised this London-wide, has then implemented a brand new scheme in E&C that necessitates the caging of pedestrians.

If pedestrians are straying into the cycle lanes, that's because the pavements aren't wide enough, or the provided crossings aren't on pedestrian desire lines.

In either case, it's because pedestrian needs (ie those of the majority of users of the area) were the least important in the consideration of the planners - if the pavements are too narrow, it's because too much space is given to motorised traffic. And if the crossings are not good, it's because too much importance was given to smoothing traffic flow through the junction, rather than 'place making' for people using the area.
Current: 10 of 22

To post a message, please log in or register..
Keep up with SE1 news

We have three email newsletters for you to choose from:

We are part of
Independent Community News Network
Email newsletter

For the latest local news and events direct to your inbox every Monday, you need our weekly email newsletter SE1 Direct.

7,000+ locals read it every week. Can you afford to miss out?

Read the latest issue before signing up

Also on the forum
Views expressed in this discussion forum are those of the contributors and may not reflect the editorial policy of this website. Please read our terms and conditions