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New E&C road layout appears to be working?

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Monday 28 December 2015 12.23pm
I agree with your statement jamesup that the E&C roundabouts may not have been the best design. I believe they may have been a safer starting design point than what we may get left with minus them, and I actually will hate to be proved right! I don't recall saying the E&C was safe, I said a roundabout appeared safer than a junction according to published data which I quoted.

On another point, sadly you've published the statistics for a different part of the E&C, this Living Streets report was including the much larger road network around the E&C roundabouts, with a lot of traffic light junctions included. Your statistics are relevant to this larger road layout but that was not my specific point. No good comparing your Apples and my Oranges, that's the trouble with damn statistics.

I would like to think a well designed roundabout approach including subways and bike lanes or bike side roads would have worked better for all road users and pedestrians. I don't think the resulting "plaza" surrounded by stationary traffic jams and their fumes will provide the kind of outdoor cafe ambience in the developers drawings...

As I said before I will not mind in the least if in 2 years time my worries are misplaced and we look at the experience of using the E&C new road and pedestrian layout and find it safer, faster and more pleasant for all users.
Monday 28 December 2015 5.36pm
Piazza - bonkers.
Roundabout - great solution for motorised traffic. Allows maximum flow, reduces standing traffic.
IMO all that was needed was better solutions for pedestrians and cyclists, which could have been done much more quickly easily and cheaply than the expensive and inefficient mess we have now.

...if you press it, they will come.
Monday 28 December 2015 6.03pm
Ivanhoe wrote:
Piazza - bonkers.
Roundabout - great solution for motorised traffic. Allows maximum flow, reduces standing traffic.
IMO all that was needed was better solutions for pedestrians and cyclists, which could have been done much more quickly easily and cheaply than the expensive and inefficient mess we have now.

Agreed, Ivanhoe. Roundabouts are great for motorised traffic - they're hell for cyclists and impossible for pedestrians. Which is why they have no place in central London.
Monday 28 December 2015 6.22pm
John C wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Piazza - bonkers.
Roundabout - great solution for motorised traffic. Allows maximum flow, reduces standing traffic.
IMO all that was needed was better solutions for pedestrians and cyclists, which could have been done much more quickly easily and cheaply than the expensive and inefficient mess we have now.

Agreed, Ivanhoe. Roundabouts are great for motorised traffic - they're hell for cyclists and impossible for pedestrians. Which is why they have no place in central London.

What, central London no place for cyclists or pedestrians?

Seriously though John C, the E&C is a major junction for the A2 and the congestion ring road. It is vital for London's survival as a World business capital that vehicular traffic is responsibly treated by TFL along with other modes of travel. After all TFL does stand for Transport For London. Helping keep pedestrians and cyclists safer does not necessarily have to be at the expense of motorists, that's down to good city and road designs. Getting rid of the safest form of junction, a roundabout, shouldn't be some misguided attempt to help cyclists. There have already been accidents where the Southern E&C roundabout was removed so case not proven on removal yet. There is a need to separate cyclists from vehicles and pedestrians, and this should be the goal for designers.
Monday 28 December 2015 7.27pm
Jerry wrote:
John C wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Piazza - bonkers.
Roundabout - great solution for motorised traffic. Allows maximum flow, reduces standing traffic.
IMO all that was needed was better solutions for pedestrians and cyclists, which could have been done much more quickly easily and cheaply than the expensive and inefficient mess we have now.

Agreed, Ivanhoe. Roundabouts are great for motorised traffic - they're hell for cyclists and impossible for pedestrians. Which is why they have no place in central London.

What, central London no place for cyclists or pedestrians?

Seriously though John C, the E&C is a major junction for the A2 and the congestion ring road...

Obviously very silly to have located a shopping centre, three railway stations, an interchange between a dozen bus routes and several well-used cycle routes just where they might interfere with the smooth passage of motorised traffic.
Monday 28 December 2015 7.34pm
Right again. It was pretty silly to put the shopping centre there. Contemporary critics said as much when the E&C centre opened, Walworth road shops were and are just around the corner.
Monday 28 December 2015 7.47pm
Jerry wrote:
Right again. It was pretty silly to put the shopping centre there. Contemporary critics said as much when the E&C centre opened, Walworth road shops were and are just around the corner.

Perhaps someone thought a shopping centre would be useful where there were already three railway stations and an interchange between a dozen bus routes?
Monday 28 December 2015 8.38pm
Jerry wrote:
... Helping keep pedestrians and cyclists safer does not necessarily have to be at the expense of motorists, that's down to good city and road designs.

Where a blank canvas allows optimisation for all, perhaps. But I think that in the real, constrained world of central London keeping pedestrians and cyclists safe does necessitate - and warrant - some correction of the Balance of power away from the motor vehicle user.

On the separate and specific question of whether the new Elephant and Castle layout is an improvement or not, I'm with those who are inclined to wait and see until the E&C and all related works are complete and have had chance to bed in.
Monday 28 December 2015 9.16pm
John C wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Piazza - bonkers.
Roundabout - great solution for motorised traffic. Allows maximum flow, reduces standing traffic.
IMO all that was needed was better solutions for pedestrians and cyclists, which could have been done much more quickly easily and cheaply than the expensive and inefficient mess we have now.

Agreed, Ivanhoe. Roundabouts are great for motorised traffic - they're hell for cyclists and impossible for pedestrians. Which is why they have no place in central London.
Yes John.
Could there not have been some solution which kept the roundabout for motorised traffic, and also made a safer, quicker, better way for pedestrians and cyclists at the same time?

I'm no traffic planner, but for instance would cyclists not have preferred some cycle-only underpasses to the current system? Would that not have provided safe, segregated through routes, with no need to stop for traffic lights?

...if you press it, they will come.
Tuesday 29 December 2015 11.09am
To suggest there's no place for roundabouts in central London is a bit like dismissing the need for red buses. Roundabouts help keep traffic moving from HGVs to double decker buses and they're not incompatible with a far from hellish, even heavenly passage for pedestrians or road users whether on surface or subway. Check list a few picture postcard locations and think again.

John C wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Piazza - bonkers.
Roundabout - great solution for motorised traffic. Allows maximum flow, reduces standing traffic.
IMO all that was needed was better solutions for pedestrians and cyclists, which could have been done much more quickly easily and cheaply than the expensive and inefficient mess we have now.

Agreed, Ivanhoe. Roundabouts are great for motorised traffic - they're hell for cyclists and impossible for pedestrians. Which is why they have no place in central London.
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