Horselydown Old Stairs

i know this subject has been discussed at great length in the past ,but as many local people may have noticed this historic public right of way has now been claimed as the private property of the 140 millon bankrupts of a company going by the name of nowtel ,the deeds of this property do not show these stairs as belonging too them or the reisidents of anchor brewhouse,as has been discussed in the past it is unclear as to the ownership of these stairs ,that being the situation, southwark council have decided to capitulate to the bully boy bankrupts and allow them to call this private land ,continuous use over 400 years means we the people of southwark have the right to use these stairs without asking their permission to open up these gates,i challenge them who deny us access to publish the documents which show they own this land . if they cannot, we should demand they take down their gates for which they have no planning permission and allow us the access, which has been ours for oveer 400 years.

d cliff wrote:

i know this subject has been discussed at great length in the past ,but as many local people may have noticed this historic public right of way has now been claimed as the private property of the 140 millon bankrupts of a company going by the name of nowtel ,the deeds of this property do not show these stairs as belonging too them or the reisidents of anchor brewhouse,as has been discussed in the past it is unclear as to the ownership of these stairs ,that being the situation, southwark council have decided to capitulate to the bully boy bankrupts and allow them to call this private land ,continuous use over 400 years means we the people of southwark have the right to use these stairs without asking their permission to open up these gates,i challenge them who deny us access to publish the documents which show they own this land . if they cannot, we should demand they take down their gates for which they have no planning permission and allow us the access, which has been ours for oveer 400 years.

What's this about, d cliff?

1: Nowtel is or was a telecom company that, according to the notice, provides or provided wifi services to the tenants of the building.

2: I have no idea if the council 'decided to capitulate to the bully boy bankrupts and allow them to call this private land'. The most obvious conclusion, without even demanding to see the present landowners' property deeds, is surely that the area of the 19th-century brewery is private land. This need not prevent a public right of way existing - by its very nature a right of way is a right to cross private land.

3: The 19th-century passageway leading to Horsleydown Old Stairs crosses private land.

4: The passageway passes through and under a private building.

5: The passageway is not currently under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 a public right of way - if you think it should be I believe you have until 2020 to make your case - and frankly, rants about 'which has been ours for oveer 400 years' are not sufficient.

6: It leads to a historic structure, the watermen's stairs, which is (I assume) maintained by the PLA and (given the original use of watermen's stairs) is no more 'public property' than a railway station is, and stands on land - the Thames foreshore between high and low tide - that is also not public land.

7: I assume planning permission should have been applied for for the gates, not because they closed off public access but because they were an addition to the exterior of a listed building. And previous posts suggest it is too late to revisit that case.

8: Currently, the passageway seems to be treated as a 'permissive path'. It is maintained by the landowners and they have a perfect right to close it off at certain times. If they stick to the times announced on the prominent notices - gates locked at dusk, and occasionally at other times, for example in stormy weather when access to the riverside would be dangerous, then I think they should be supported, not yelled at.

9: Not surprisingly, the notices stress the dangers - it will take just one idiot to slip on a wet step and sue the landowners! (Of course, if it was a public highway they could sue the council instead.)

10: There is also a local phone number given to call if you are 'locked in' - a wise measure for anyone who finds themselves trapped on the foreshore by the rising tide after dusk!

john c i dont know how long you have lived here or been using these stairs,as i have for the past 11 years ,you seem to think that its ok for these people to put up signs and deny the public access,what utter rubbish about concern for safety ,take down the stupid signs and the filthy gates put things back as they were or take me and anyone else who obstucts these people from shutting these gates as i intend to do,to court ,i also i,d like to know what is your vested interest.southwark council have allowed these people to steal the original sign then ,i got it replaced only for it to be replaced again with one saying it is private land, it is not and they will not shut these gates, i will continue to access the river as and when i choose and you and the rest of the people who think we have to ask these people permission, can go and jump in the river ,in fact i think i will sleep there just to prove the point if its private land, let them arrest me and let a court decide if its private or not ,now thats a rant. as to nowtel and them providing internet services to anchor brewhouse managment ,that another load of rubbish,this whole issue is because they got burgled and dont want people walking through there without them having control.oh one other point pla are not reponsable for these stairs ,only up to the high water mark.if southwark council have seen the deeds, then let them publish them400 years of use makes this a right of way regardless.

d cliff wrote:

john c i dont know how long you have lived here or been using these stairs,as i have for the past 11 years ,you seem to think that its ok for these people to put up signs and deny the public access,what utter rubbish about concern for safety ,take down the stupid signs and the filthy gates put things back as they were or take me and anyone else who obstucts these people from shutting these gates as i intend to do,to court ,i also i,d like to know what is your vested interest.southwark council have allowed these people to steal the original sign then ,i got it replaced only for it to be replaced again with one saying it is private land, it is not and they will not shut these gates, i will continue to access the river as and when i choose and you and the rest of the people who think we have to ask these people permission, can go and jump in the river ,in fact i think i will sleep there just to prove the point if its private land, let them arrest me and let a court decide if its private or not ,now thats a rant. as to nowtel and them providing internet services to anchor brewhouse managment ,that another load of rubbish,this whole issue is because they got burgled and dont want people walking through there without them having control.oh one other point pla are not reponsable for these stairs ,only up to the high water mark.if southwark council have seen the deeds, then let them publish them400 years of use makes this a right of way regardless.

Sorry - perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were claiming it was a public right of way, which is what has been discussed before. But then it seems you mean it has been a public highway, unlawfully built over by the Anchor Brewery back in the 19th century? Or claimed unlawfully by the present landowners?

Or did I misunderstand? Since you also say '400 years of use makes this a right of way'? If it's a public right of way, do go and sleep there - you can also try that on a public footpath in the countryside, but don't be surprised if you're woken up and kicked off by the farmer. A right of way is just that - a WAY for people to go along about their lawful business. It doesn't give them the right to lay out a sleeping bag or set up camp for the night. (Come to that, neither does a public highway.)

If I lived locally one of my concerns about removing the gates and giving public access at night would, given the location, be the local drunks popping in for a quick p**s. (Why do you think similar passageways in old towns used to have names like 'Pissing Alley'? or have notices saying euphemistically 'Commit no nuisance'?)

'these people... put up signs and deny the public access' - they aren't denying the public access, they are granting the public access.

'you and the rest of the people who think we have to ask these people permission, can go and jump in the river' - you don't have to ask their permission, just go along during daylight hours and walk through the gates. If the gates are being locked on unreasonable occasions then there is cause for complaint.

'as to nowtel and them providing internet services to anchor brewhouse managment ,that another load of rubbish' - presumably you know far more than I do about Nowtel. I saw a notice saying they provided wifi services, looked them up on the web and discovered they were a telecom company (which seems reasonable given the name) - but in liquidation. Are you saying they have branched out into property management?

'one other point pla are not reponsable for these stairs ,only up to the high water mark' - agreed - I was talking about the historic watermen's stairs, which stand on the foreshore below high water mark.

Oh, and in answer to your personal questions/comments:

'i dont know how long you have lived here or been using these stairs,as i have for the past 11 years' - I've lived 'here' (the Borough) for 30 years and regard myself as a newcomer. I haven't used the stairs very often, I rarely visit Shad Thames - it's too trendy for me.

' ,i also i,d like to know what is your vested interest' - Why is it that so many people immediately assume that anyone who dares to say anything that can be construed as supporting 'the establishment' has a vested interest? And then use it as if it's an insult? I'm not sure what counts as a vested interest in this case. But I don't work for Southwark Council or the owners or management of the Anchor Brewhouse development. I don't live there, or in any other luxury converted warehouse on Shad Thames - or in a similar property anywhere else, with or without a river view. I'm not a lawyer with an interest in property law. I'm not a member of the Ramblers Association or the National Farmers Union. Give me a list of 'vested interests' and I'll see if I can tick any boxes.

Planning application for new gate:
https://planning.southwark.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=externalDocuments&keyVal=_STHWR_DCAPR_9577667

Having viewed the plans of the proposed new gate, with no indication of materials or size of said gate, it would appear that cats, dogs and small humans will be able to crawl under the gate itself at any time.
How Southwark Council can seriously accept such a poorly put together application is beyond me.

c

So poorly put together the applicant tells the council it does not know what materials will be used for the gate.