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Sunday 21 April 2019 7.29pm
I went today and was impressed by the organisation and commitment of those involved. It was a nice atmosphere. - very peaceful and welcoming to all and trying the engage the wider public in the debate. They are not the same as other protestors - less middle class than I expected having heard the press and certainly less threatening than most.

As for change for the ballot box, I guess they would say it is clear that Governments aren't acting and won't do enough in time. If you believe climate change is the most important issue we face, and that those with vested interests will seek to prevent action being taken, then what do you do? Wait for the next election (where climate change will not be the decisive issue or even one of the main ones)? We have to make unpopular choices at a societal level. How do we do that?

The way democracy works is if the main parties basically agree, nothing changes and their aim would be to provoke those parties into changing their position. As it happens, liberal democracy is not having its finest hour at present and our Parliament isn't exactly covering itself in glory. I'm glad there are people out there who aren't smugly enjoying a very privileged life and trying to do something.
Sunday 21 April 2019 7.57pm
"Jerry

Please donít misquote or selectively misrepresent another poster. "

I don't.

"I clearly said ďextra childĒ not NO child. "

I didn't say "NO child" either.

"...their stated goal of zero carbon production by 2025 is unattainable according to everything Iíve read."

Not according to everything they've read, evidently, or they wouldn't have come the conclusion that it is in fact attainable.

"I wonder what the actual agenda of ER is"

Exactly what they say it is.

"So it is either naive or they realise itís unattainable."

Or, they have done their own research and come to a different conclusion than you.


You voice your opinion. That does not mean your opinion is right and Extinction Rebellion's is wrong. Again, how would support for your opinion compare to that of Extinction Rebellion do you think?
Sunday 21 April 2019 10.31pm
Quote:
You voice your opinion. That does not mean your opinion is right and Extinction Rebellion's is wrong. Again, how would support for your opinion compare to that of Extinction Rebellion do you think?

ER and I share the worry that climate change is serious and happening. We donít share the way to encourage a response to it. Support for ER is not that large really, more people at any Premier league game, but I grant you it is vocal and committed and I am impressed by its tactical non violent approach. I think this protest will have roughly the same success as those Occupy protests around St Paulís against the banks. That was 2012, what did they achieve from their manifesto, very little of any import. We are still waiting for an end to austerity and we did pay for the banks bail out. As to how support for my opinion is to be judged, well Iím unwilling to remove the police from fighting real criminals and tackling things like knife crime just to have a little personal media time...
Sunday 21 April 2019 11.14pm
Jerry

Support for ER is not that large really, more people at any Premier league game,

- How do you know that? Do you have any figures?

As to how support for my opinion is to be judged

- my question was how support for your opinion would compare to that for Extinction Rebellion: more than at any Premier League game? More than Extinction Rebellion?

I think this protest will have roughly the same success as those Occupy protests around St Paulís against the banks

- once more, that is hypothetical opinion rather than fact. In my opinion, the world would be a better place if Extinction Rebellion did make an impact. A better place than one with birth control anyway. Which reminds me: you falsely accused me of "misquoting or selectively misrepresenting another poster". Would you care to respond?
Sunday 21 April 2019 11.14pm
Piers Corbyn considers it all baloney too.! . Amen to that.. Happy Easter!
Monday 22 April 2019 8.48am
Jerry

Support for ER is not that large really, more people at any Premier league game,

- What data do you base that claim on? How large is support for your birth-control cause, in comparison, in real figures?
Monday 22 April 2019 10.30am
eDWaRD WooDWaRD wrote:
Jerry
Support for ER is not that large really, more people at any Premier league game,

- What data do you base that claim on? How large is support for your birth-control cause, in comparison, in real figures?

Extinction Rebellion themselves claimed 5000-10,000 activists were at the London event. Less than at any Premier League match.

Quote:
You can't get people stop having children

You're right you didn't misquote me but chose to misrepresent my words. For the record I don't think any right minded person would choose a world without children.
I never said "stop", I pointed out how much having a child contributes to one's carbon footprint. This should concern everyone as it's the single largest contributor to the carbon footprint of a family. I point out facts, if you would like figures do some research before questioning mine. Just for you though... As reported in most broadsheets in 2017 and 2018, researchers at Lund university in Sweden reported that having one fewer child can save an average of 58.6 tonnes of CO2 equivalent emissions per year. Living car free saves 2.4 tonnes per year. These are the facts. Most discussions are best fuelled by facts. Feel free to call them into question, but don't imply I am making this stuff up, it goes against the conversations we have on this great site. I don't have a cause or supporters as I'm sure you realise with you're attempt at questions you know aren't really questions at all...

I'm not engaging with this thread anymore as I'm happy to have made my point, plus I'm sure we've killed off any interest in following us further ;)
Monday 22 April 2019 12.23pm
Jerry

"Extinction Rebellion themselves claimed 5000-10,000 activists were at the London event. Less than at any Premier League match. "

= That is attendance, not support. Support for Extinction Rebellion is global and will exceed any attendance at any PL Game.

"You're right you didn't misquote me but chose to misrepresent my words. "

= No, I didn't. I said "You can't get people stop having children", I didn't say "prevent" from". If someone has 1 child, you can't stop them having a 2nd child. Or a third. What we can do is raise children like Greta Thunberg, a role model. Extinction Rebellion are here now. Much more effective than wasting more precious time trying to get convince "politicians and religions to agree amongst themselves" that birth control is the way to go re climate changes. By the time they "agree amongst themselves", Extinction Rebellions' proposals would already be implemented and working. Can't see the likes of Rees Mogg advocating birth control.
Monday 22 April 2019 6.11pm
Piers Corbyn is, at best, not the sharpest tool in the shed (and that's generous) - case in point: https://twitter.com/Piers_Corbyn/status/1118019958779338753

It's been interesting watching people who want an excuse to be angry and have their world view reinforced scream HYPOCRISY at the protesters for causing pollution (the jury is very much still out - see the London Air Quality Network's news post), or drinking out of plastic bottles (reminds me of Louise Mensch on HIGNFY), or leaving Hyde Park as a tip (to photos of the debris left by the 4/20 pro-cannabis picnic thing - and actually the ER protesters voluntarily helped to clean up...).

If you had gone down to take a look, you'd have seen it was actually a pretty chilled out, well-mannered protest that succeeded in raising the profile of the issue. Most of the people screaming about those inconvenienced seem not to have been directly affected - and plenty of people have been saying "actually really nice walking across Waterloo Bridge without the cars, much nicer for my commute". I'm sure there might be a couple of people with mobility issues who can't walk/cycle/use the tube who were impacted, and that sucks, but happens every day with road traffic accidents (or, you know, decaying public infrastructure).

Good on the kids, I say.
Monday 22 April 2019 6.36pm
eDWaRD WooDWaRD wrote:
Jerry
"Extinction Rebellion themselves claimed 5000-10,000 activists were at the London event. Less than at any Premier League match. "

= That is attendance, not support. Support for Extinction Rebellion is global and will exceed any attendance at any PL Game.

"You're right you didn't misquote me but chose to misrepresent my words. "

= No, I didn't. I said "You can't get people stop having children", I didn't say "prevent" from". If someone has 1 child, you can't stop them having a 2nd child. Or a third. What we can do is raise children like Greta Thunberg, a role model. Extinction Rebellion are here now. Much more effective than wasting more precious time trying to get convince "politicians and religions to agree amongst themselves" that birth control is the way to go re climate changes. By the time they "agree amongst themselves", Extinction Rebellions' proposals would already be implemented and working. Can't see the likes of Rees Mogg advocating birth control.

Good points, eDWaRD. I'm sorry that Jerry is no longer 'engaging with this thread'. I would like to understand how he thinks his own proposals can be put into practice. And I'm still puzzled that he thinks Extinction Rebellion have some sort of 'hidden agenda'. Sounds like something out of one of Agatha Christie's rather silly early novels - The Hidden Adversary perhaps - with a secret society and some 'hidden hand' employing the innocent protesters as a sock-puppet to implement a nefarious scheme for the downfall of society.

If there's 'hidden' agenda it's surely the very open purpose of any protest - to publicise the issues and get them discussed. And it's worked - for example, they're being discussed on the SE1 forum! (Personally, I'm old enough now that I won't be around to have to join the inevitable exodus from SE1 to higher ground to escape the floodwaters as sea levels rise.)

And there does seem to be a growing consensus:

1: Global warming is taking place.
2: It's a bad thing.
3: It's been caused by human activity.
4: (Therefore) it can (possibly) be slowed, halted, or reversed by human intervention.
5: It is URGENT.

Anything that hammers those messages home to the government and to the voting public is a good thing.

If there's one thing 'naive' about Extinction Rebellion's stated agenda, it is the third item 'we demand a Citizens Assembly to oversee the changes'. Given that 17 million of our fellow citizens voted for Brexit, citizens are the last people I would trust to implement the stringent measures that would be needed. (Look at all the public whingeing about the ultra-low emission zone.)

To take up a point about large families that Jan made earlier - I guess that a family with eight or nine children in Pakistan (or anywhere else in Asia or Africa) makes less of a demand on world resources than a family with two children in the western world. I think someone once suggested that a selective nuclear strike, targeting a dozen European and American major cities, would in the long term be beneficial for the world. If we need to cull the surplus population, we need to start at the top. (Wasn't there a saying 'Eat the rich'?)

I'm sorry to learn of Paramount's deprived childhood - quote 'When I was a child I was encouraged actively by my parents to lend devote [?] my mind and energies to more restful child like pursuits.' I grew up in a 'politically active' family in east London in the 1950s. Some of my earliest memories are of attending political rallies in Trafalgar Square and Hyde Park. Not that they made much difference, though!
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