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Tooley Street lapdancing club

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Friday 24 March 2006 12.02am
My understanding corresponds to James H. Google the LILITH REPORT ON LAP DANCING AND STRIPTEASE IN THE BOROUGH OF CAMDEN, its available in a number of places. It found: Coincident with Camden's strip joints :

"50 % increase in rape
57% increase in sexual assault
Camden rape rate now 3 times the national average
Creation of 'no go' areas for women
Camden's female rape rate per 1000 for 2001 was three times the national average, and 12% of these were aggressive, causing mild to moderate injury..... Over 60% of rape victims and 78% of indecent assault victims in Camden in 2001 were under 30, which is particularly concerning when the Met reports that over 230 young women were victims of minicab rape in the same year."

Great idea then to put a new club right beside a hospital with nurses and other staff on shift don't you think?? Students, residents? You know: women? I think its a bit more serious than coaches parked on a red route on Tooley Street, don't you?

Can I also say that I don't agree with Ken Livingstone on his decision to support the Berkeley Homes development. However, I don't want the strip club or the luxury development, and if he's putting money into a campaign to put a stop to one of them, thats money well spent in my view. What some people seem to be arguing on this thread is; we hate Livingstone, my enemy's enemy is my friend.

Friday 24 March 2006 11.48am
I'm also against this application so if the Church is making an effort I'll support them for bothering to try regardless of how many people in their congregation. After all the forum try make a difference occasionally with (probably) lesser numbers.

I love Southwark's history but I'd rather it stayed historical... The brothels are colourful history but would have been grim reality.

Drunken office workers egging each other on are not ideal - but the ones the bouncers refuse entry to / get thrown out for misbehaviour will be even worse. I used to work round Farringdon and the one there (?is it still there?) really put me off ever visiting that bit / walking to the station that way. I'd also worry that brothels will spring up in its wake to cater for those leaving the place who felt just looking wasn't enough...
Friday 24 March 2006 1.02pm
Ivanhoe wrote:
Possel wrote:
Then you could just possibly count the other Christian denominations as well.
Strongly disagree. I think that the point of having different denominations is, erm, that they are different and have decided to set up different systems and people to propagate/air/repeat/celebrate their different brands of faith.

Very strongly disagree. I am unaware of any Christian denomination that has a "brand of faith" which supports the visiting of lap dancing clubs. and would vigorously contest the idea that you think such a denomination exists. Yes, we are different with different interpretations of various matters, but fundamentally we share the same beliefs and accept each others' views and differences.

My original point was that the analysis offered to dismiss the church's view as irrelevant is simplistic. The latest Church of England stats are that more than 1.7 million people attend Church of England church and cathedral worship each month (there are 43 dioceses) while around 1.2 million attend each week - on Sunday or during the week - and just over one million each Sunday. You might think this is small in percentage terms of the country's population but are you seriously going to dismiss the views of so many people?
Friday 24 March 2006 1.46pm

Sorry, but I must have not been as clear as I intended. I don't claim to know any brand of christianity that supports lapdancing clubs. I was contending the point (that you made) that the C of E should be taken to be representative of all other brands of christianity. Nothing more. My contention is that it doesn't represent the other brands, and that this is demonstrated by the very existence of those other brands of faith.

Thanks you for suppling the figures about church attendance. That was the sort of info I was wondering about at first. If we take your middle estimate (say 1.5m regular attendees, and a population of between 60 and 65 million - which I hope is reasonably accurate), then we get a figure of between 2% and 3% of the population. All I'm saying is that imho the C of E still manages to punch significantly above its weight in terms of the amount of press coverage it gets versus the amount of people it represents.

That's all I'm saying.

...if you press it, they will come.
Friday 24 March 2006 3.29pm
Karene wrote:
I think its a bit more serious than coaches parked on a red route on Tooley Street

I am not saying that sexual assault is unimportant, however there may be other factors influencing statistics - The Government tell us crime figures are down in London, meanwhile other bodies claim they have risen - who do we believe.

Whether or not statistics are more serious than coaches is irrelevant. The coach issue has been in existence for a long period of time and Mr Livingstone has chosen to ignore it. Meanwhile something more glamorous and easy to win political points on 'Mayor cracks down on sleaze' and he's throwing our money at it.

I have no wish to pick an argument however there are lies, damned lies and statistics. In the meantime the quality of life for residents is reduced by The Authorities ignoring illegal parking/pollution - I am talking about dozens of coaches every day from now until September.
Friday 24 March 2006 4.06pm
xana wrote:
I'm also against this application so if the Church is making an effort I'll support them for bothering to try regardless of how many people in their congregation.

I hear the BNP are trying to ban the strip club [TFIC]. Will you be lining up behind them as well?

...if you press it, they will come.
Friday 24 March 2006 4.53pm
Good point.

Though I'll stick with the idea that my enemy's enemy isn't always my friend. I don't think there's any organisation/person I agree with on all points. So I can disagree with Livingstone, the Church and the BNP on a lot of things (up to and including their entire philosophy) and yet concede that their support doesn't necessarily mean the issue in question is wrong. But I admit that there is some company which does make you consider your position rather carefully.

Mmm am I making any sense? Probably not but it's nearly the weekend...
Friday 24 March 2006 6.20pm
I like the Wisdom of Xana - I'd buy your book. Best Thoughts.
Friday 24 March 2006 6.38pm
livingstone and the church are a side debate here.

Fact is i dont want a strip club near my house. This is not like just another bar. MAke no mistake this is seedy business with highly undesirable consequences for the area. The increased potential for violence, prostitution, guns and the rest of it just isnt worth the risk to anyone except the club owner. And he/she sure as hell doesnt live next door to it.

To me whats disappointing is the council for granting it approval. Its justified by saying 'morals' cant be used as a deciding factor. What nonsense! I suppose how can it if you're more interested in taking under-the-table cash payments from some seedy strip club owner.
Friday 24 March 2006 7.41pm
Paul, OK so I was having a go, I just thought you were being disingenuous. I live in Devon Mansions and I have to suffer the coaches too. But...

This isn't about whether the politicians think this or that, do we agree with a strip club on Tooley Street? Is it going to add to the quality of life, or to the growing problems.

Whether crime is going up or down: these figures can be manipulated. The govt - and Ken - have placed a huge emphasis on increased policing, so of course its useful to have figures to prove their policies are justified.

I read a report a few years ago which claimed police rarely intercept crime as it is happening. Another part of the report alleged that crime figures in Brixton were massaged to justify increased policing. They apparently included pick pocketing as violent crime there, when in other districts it was not.

Anyhow, thats all slightly off the subject. It shouldn't matter what Ken thinks, the arguements should speak for themselves. I'm very annoyed that Ken is backing the luxury flats; maybe thats the price he paid to get back into the Labour Party? But if he pickets out the club with our TA as has been suggested to me, it might mean we don't get a lap dancing club:)
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