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Thursday 6 April 2006 4.20pm
At the risk of you all calling me a Nazi, I can see a point similar to Jack's.

Personally I come over all objectionable when I read posts on here of the: "Oh, if only SE1 was more like Chelsea/Why can't we have a Waitrose/If only Conran bought TBR and filled it with gatropods/I moved to trendy Bermondsety St and all I got was the smell from that lousy bakery" variety.

And I hate the fact that they've built that huge tower right by the Oak, thus decreasing even further my chances of getting a table. In other words, I find myself getting cross about things that (in my opinion) are changing the neighbourhood for the worst.

But I've only lived here for about 10 yrs (in two spells, with a break in between), so what right have I to have a view? Especially given that I live behind gates, don't rely on the local authority for any significant services, and leave SE1 every day to go to work in another part of town.

The people who make the point, above, that change is inevitable, and can bring good things, are probably right. but that doesn't stop us all thinking we've got the right sit in our own SE1 homes and object to the "newcomers" (which, in many cases, means people arriving about 5 minutes after ourselves).

Obviously, given that we're a fairly liberal web community (and I think Jon described it well in his post above), it makes us very uncomfortable if anyone posts on here and there's a suspicion of racial intolerance. I don't want to go into that (you see, it's making me uncomfortable, I told you so), but the mix of different cultures (cultures, as in lifestyles, interests and aspirations. Not races) is definitely a source of tension in SE1.

On the forum we've had muggings, street drinkers, planning objections (which may or may not be NIMBYist, depending on your standpoint), and all sorts of other things which could be said to be the result of different cultures living together in SE1. Again, I'm not saying different races (largely irrelevant in my view), I'm saying different cultures. There are parts of SE1 that I would take more care in than others when walking home at night, and there are pubs I wouldn't choose to drink in. You could well say that this is because I don't fit in there, culturally.

...if you press it, they will come.
Thursday 6 April 2006 4.22pm
Note to local newsagents: hide current issue of Time Out if Jack Carter (description above) comes in - he'll find the "next happening areas in London" really offensive and no doubt will be posting on their local websites to that effect too.

So seeing as we have frightened him off (unless of course he's rallying his troops) is the dress code at Simon's the usual? ... baggy ... denim ... unshaven ...?
Thursday 6 April 2006 4.45pm
i was talking about this thread with my mother who has lived in the area for 75 years and she has some sympathy with Jack but doesn't think that you can fully blame the "newcomers". She points to the fact that the council years ago had a "sons and daughters" policy whereby if your parents had a flat on a particular estate or street you would be allocated a flat or house there when you grew up and wanted a council flat. So many estates or streets would have generations of one family and extended family living close by and providing a community network. This meant that there was always someone to babysit , look after Granny and most people knew each other by their family connections.

This had disappeared, due to lack of council housing and people moving out of London to be able to afford to own their own homes as their expectations changed. Therefore you do not have the community support from the extended family being close by and I guess this may contribute to the loss of community that Jack feels? Maybe unlike him i do not feel that way as my family are a lazy bunch and still pretty much in South London many in SE1 or SE16.
Thursday 6 April 2006 4.56pm
Dee Dee
The extenended family all living close by is maily a thing of the past all over the country and not just SE1 or even London. The population as a whole is much more transient than it use to be as people move around for work etc. Many people in rural areas moan that their off spring can not afford to live in the same village because of rising houseprices, yet many villages still have a sense of community. I like Se1 its not perfect but still has more of a comminuty spirit than many other ionner city areas. I however feel that Jack has more right to complain about changes than those newcomers who then moan about further devlopement. It may be harder to get a table at your favourite pub but then hopefully with new influx of people more good pubs open up which is better than the current decline of local watering holes.
Thursday 6 April 2006 5.06pm

agreed this is an issue all over the country and indeed if you go any where in London or rural villages you will hear the same complaints about locals being forced out as cannot afford the prices and communities being distroyed. The point i was trying to make is that many people in SE1 of a certain age-and i have no idea how old Jack is -would have grown up with that experience ( like my mother) or at the ends of it when people were moving out of the area due to lack of housing or non affordability of housing which has happened since the 1980's and this to a certain extent will have clouded thier judgement of the changes occurring . They will see the "community " they knew being destroyed and will not appreciate that a new and different sort of community is rising in its place.
Thursday 6 April 2006 6.18pm
If the white working class people were so attached to their community, why one earth did they sell their properties, warehouses...They should have stayed put and kept on living in harmony (really?) in SE1. My guess is that they were so bloody happy to sell off their runned down properties and had dreams to go up the social ladder by moving up the property ladder...Hard cash is hard to resist is your are working class (whatever the colour of your skin or the money).
Thursday 6 April 2006 6.32pm
Julie wrote:
Note to local newsagents: hide current issue of Time Out if Jack Carter (description above) comes in - he'll find the "next happening areas in London" really offensive and no doubt will be posting on their local websites to that effect too.
So seeing as we have frightened him off (unless of course he's rallying his troops) is the dress code at Simon's the usual? ... baggy ... denim ... unshaven ...?

Did this include anywhere in SE1?
Thursday 6 April 2006 6.44pm
Jack's comments have really made me think. The reality of the situation is that the real 'driving out' was undertaken by Dr Salter in the 1930s. He and his wife are seen by many as saints given that they promoted health issues, pulled down workhouses, educated the local underclass about the exploitation that they suffered at the hands of the hop-growers of Kent etc etc etc. But Dr Salter also presided over the wholesale demolition of rows of back to backs and the transportation of the residents to outlying boroughs. There is still a large 'Bermondsey' community in Mottingham.

The empty warehouses on Bermondsey St weren't empty because of some sinister plot amongst the chattering classes. The chattering classes didn't know about Bermondsey until they read about it in the Evening Standard. They were empty because of the policies enacted by Southwark Council in their North Southwark Development Policy of the late 1960s and early 1970s. That policy ensured that empty commercial property remained empty and, as a result, the local community remained unemployed (if you want more info PM me).

So Jack is looking backward to a community who were marginalised 80 years ago by global economic change then by social engineering then by short-sighted employment policies. In 2006, the new incomers have absolutely nothing to do with the passing of the community that Jack mourns.


Thursday 6 April 2006 7.41pm
dee dee
I heard about a similar "sons and daughters" policy on council housing operating in tower hamlets in the 80s. in reality it is a policy aimed at fossilising communities. what gives anyone the right to be housed at the public (i.e. yours and mine) expense? in particular this kind of policy shout out "unsuitable" (for that read black and asian) newcomers. what makes london special is that it is a constantly changing and developing city. we are not the french and we do not entrench our ethnic communities in ghettoes.
Thursday 6 April 2006 8.08pm
i'm sure this is a hoax.
nobody can be that ignorant. not even a pitbull owning white working class mill wall supporter.
nice stereotyping going on over the thread, so i thought i'd continue.

well. didn't carter chose well for this forum -in case it ain't a hoax- the right community to mess with.not.
entertaining and educating. interesting facts niall about the history of this part of town.
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