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E&C: back to the drawing board?

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Current: 7 of 52
Tuesday 14 October 2008 3.48pm
I didn't say anything about a hierarchy of access to transport. There is, by default, a hierarchy of access to transport modes.

Guilty as charged. Transport modes.

OK, OK, OK, I sense a man who develops hierarchies for a living. You have clearly pointed out to me a vehicle-size hierarchy for parks, yet prefer a social hierarchy for the Elephant (on the basis that a vehicular hierarchy discriminates against the average impoverished Southwark-er). Very logical (in a Hal-fashion), no doubt, but missing my point I think. The current Elephant is fine for pedestrians and fine for motorists (I use it frequently as a pedestrian, and regularly as a motorist, and am happy as a pedestrian and only somewhat unhappy as a motorist); why should a new one change its priorities?

The barrier to using taxis is a slightly higher wealth barrier. Whereas access to private motor transport is limited [by a yet higher wealth barrier]

Now there I disagree. I run a car, but I think I've been in three cabs this year, and on only one of those occasions would I have taken the cab had I been alone. I am far too parsimonious to take cabs; they are fiendishly expensive.

In fact, I don't use the Elephant very often as a motorist. It's horrific. Heading east, I turn off at St George's Circus-Borough Road-Harper Road; Heading west I go up Great Dover St-Marshalsea Road-Southwark St-Stamford St-Lambeth Palace Road. It's the ringroad; it SHOULD be useable.
Tuesday 14 October 2008 4.20pm
@PoliticalAnimal - Please forgive me. I'd be mortified if someone did that to me. Great blog entry.

@Mapmaker - I'm not sure either pedestrians or car drivers are particularly happy with the E&C road network as it stands. It's usable, but drivers never look to be particularly happy coming through it, and I know a lot of pedestrians find it arcane and frightening (I'm a reasonably strapping bloke and I bailed out of the subways in fear the other night).

I fear that there's just too much traffic of all types trying to use too small a space, so I was trying to highlight the trade-offs involved in trying to come up with a new one.

I'm completely in agreement with you about the frightening taxi fares. I find the way the meter ticks over even more frightening than the hoodies in the subways.
Tuesday 14 October 2008 4.32pm
Rambling Phil wrote:
Thanks for the comments, For a good explanation, from a Tory point of view, I recommend this:
In favour of feudal roads

I've had a look at that, and I'm not sure I understand any of it. It certainly doesn't look like a very Tory point of view, and if it is, I disagree with it. Anyway, as it claims that CO2 emissions for bicycles are Zero, it is clearly wrong and as such the rest of it is thrown into dispute.

Puhing motor vehicles further down the hierarchy at the Elephant will help nobody.
Tuesday 14 October 2008 5.15pm
maybe we just all need to get together and stage a protest outside city hall!?
Tuesday 14 October 2008 5.31pm
As a pedestrian I loath the dark, dingy and smelly underpasses - I completely fail to understand how anyone could think the current arrangement for pedestrians is acceptable in 2008.
And now imagine being a visitor / new in the area getting lost down there. It's a labyrinth - welcome to Elephant and Castle!

As a cyclist I try to avoid the roundabouts as much as possible as it feels like taking my life into my hands.
Apart form all the traffic has anyone noticed how bad the street surface has become? I think this is a real danger and accidents will happen if this is not repaired. Unfortunately with the current water mains repair works it has become more difficult to use the cycle lane avoiding both roundabouts.....

I mentioned it before but IMHO the removal of the underpasses will have the biggest impact on everyones lives around the Elephant and is the most major improvement to the area.
Tuesday 14 October 2008 5.37pm
Mapmaker> It's the ringroad; it SHOULD be useable.

What I don't understand about this fuss is that the road from Elephant towards Vauxhall is the ringroad - and the Southwark proposal would make this the through route, avoiding the detour around the roundabout. Walworth road would then enter The Ring road at a T junction. So in fact it would be easier to travel on the ringroad by car with Southwark's scheme in place. This movement would also be much safer for cyclists.

Furthermore, in future, once the Heygate has gone, it is proposed that Walworth Road is diverted so that its car traffic joins New Kent Road at Rodney Road. So only buses and cycles would then be using the Walworth Road/Ring Road junction. This would reduce traffic at the roundabout area further, and make this even more of a non-issue.

Perhaps we should invite Boris and Kulveer to come and see for themselves.
Tuesday 14 October 2008 6.12pm
Heavens, you mean that Boris hasnt even been to LOOK? I agree the underpasses are pretty grotty although I find them useful and a great way to get across a lot of roads without getting wet. If they could be more pleasant and less beset by rubbish and beggars it would be better.
Tuesday 14 October 2008 6.33pm
Better maybe but not was is needed and has been consulted on, the removal of the underpasses.
Tuesday 14 October 2008 6.34pm
jackie rokotnitz wrote:
Heavens, you mean that Boris hasnt even been to LOOK? I agree the underpasses are pretty grotty although I find them useful and a great way to get across a lot of roads without getting wet. If they could be more pleasant and less beset by rubbish and beggars it would be better.

I believe the current underpasses are beyond repair. Also the layout is most confusing.

I recently was thinking that theoretically there should be a way to have pleasant underpasses. However, I guess they would need to be at least twice as wide or even be some sort of underground shopping mall with shops to either side and a very wide central 'street'.
Principally that would be one vast underground space spanning between the roundabouts side to side, with pedestrians having their shopping street right underneath the cars. One straight space with a number of exits, no nooks and crannies....

However, I still would want to be able to cross at street level!
Tuesday 14 October 2008 6.38pm
and forgot to mention that the underpasses at the southern roundabout are decidedly more unpleasant than the northern ones. It would appear the northern ones received a facelift i.e. multicoloured tiles at some point.
Current: 7 of 52

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