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Tuesday 26 October 2010 2.03pm
Ivanhoe, I haven't said I want to exclude all children. Indeed, I've said I believe in taking them to galleries and to public spaces and teaching them how to behave there. What I object to is adults allowing children in their charge - and/or the paraphenalia/processes that come with them - to be disruptive of others' use of public spaces. In this instance specifically, the Tate Modern Members' Room.

So, judging by your latest post, we seem to be pretty much in agreement.
Tuesday 26 October 2010 2.07pm
Ivanhoe wrote:
Bungle wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Tolstoy wrote:
Jerry beat me to it; the simple truth is children want to play at being children not made to be more adult and the fact is the members room is hardly suited to it, surely that is undeniable? They are not a different species but they do have different needs.
I'm denying it.

You seem to be saying that it's unimaginable that children can sit for half an hour or so and have a drink with an adult.

The children in your mind are quite different from any of the children in my real life. Yes, children LOVE to play and run around, but they're also perfectly capable of sitting in a chair and not going ballistic for half an hour.
Older children maybe, not toddlers and babies.

Bungle, you've already told us upthread how children are incapable of finding pictures interesting, and now you're telling us that babies and toddlers can't sit still for half an hour. What next....babies don't like milk?

I'm sorry, but this is so wrong it's almost funny.

BabyI is just over 1, and happily joins us for meals out, trips to cafes and pubs, etc. Has done since birth. Often in the company of other friends with children of similar ages. Who, similarly, have no problem in keeping themselves out of the way and earshot of fellow diners.

In fact, the only places I try to avoid taking BabyI are those which are full of very noisy trendy young diners. The noise of their indiscriminate "enjoyment" is too loud for the poor little thing to stand. However, I've not been lobbying the restaurants in question to throw the bright young things out.

Why not stop making all these claims about childrens' behaviours when you appear to know less than nothing about the subject?
I know what I have observed, which is when very young children are about and bored and/or upset it isn't long before they start crying and/or making other ear splitting noise.
Tuesday 26 October 2010 2.10pm
Your denying the questionable assumption that the members room is an appropriate place for play? Right. My observation is they last about ten minutes before starting to fidget, bounce up and down on the sofas, start pulling on the chairs, run around, then find the nearest stranger and stand directly in front of them and stare (I like that one). None of their fault of course and I guess we have to consider the age of the children we're 'concerned' about here, but I stand by the comment that I really don't see the members room as the most interesting place for them to be for their own peace of mind.
Tuesday 26 October 2010 2.39pm
OK, you guys who (I'm guessing) don't have children, can tell me (because you "know") that children can't sit still for half an hour, and therefore are unfit to be in any sort of cafe situation.

Why don't you carry on asserting that cobblers, while I sit down to enjoy a lovely cuppa in the company of my baby (who'll be having milk, and keeping herself to herself).

Tomorrow night, I think we're taking BabyI to the pub for a meal with its grandparents. The pub that we always go to, where the landlord and barstaff know BI by name, and always tell us how nice it is to see her, where she makes a lot less noise than the average punter, and where she stays put and doesn't get in anyone else's way.

Damn, I must have an exceptional child! Because, according to you childless experts, BabyI does something impossible every day.

And Tolstoy, I'm clearly NOT saying the MR is a place for play. You're the one with the fixation that children should only be in places which are specifically designated for them, with softplay areas and childrens' menus, and that they will be ipso facto unhappy in any place which isn't so endowed.

I'm saying that the MR is a cafe for members and their guests; I'm saying that a baby can be a guest; and I'm saying that babies can be taken into cafes without the sky falling in.

...if you press it, they will come.
Tuesday 26 October 2010 2.47pm
Bungle wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Is my membership somehow worth less than yours, or should it convey fewer benefits than yours, because I've got a child? I'd happily take a discount on my membership if that's what you're proposing, but I suspect it isn't.
The fault in your logic is that if I wish to take along an adult guest I have to pay extra on top of my membership fee. You don't to take your child.

Wrong again. We have two member-plus-guest cards in our (two adult, one child) household. The only times I've taken BabyI to the MR, it's been as my (sole) guest.

Do you want to try making any other wildly incorrect assertions?

...if you press it, they will come.
Tuesday 26 October 2010 3.01pm
Ivanhoe wrote:
Bungle wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Is my membership somehow worth less than yours, or should it convey fewer benefits than yours, because I've got a child? I'd happily take a discount on my membership if that's what you're proposing, but I suspect it isn't.
The fault in your logic is that if I wish to take along an adult guest I have to pay extra on top of my membership fee. You don't to take your child.

Wrong again. We have two member-plus-guest cards in our (two adult, one child) household. The only times I've taken BabyI to the MR, it's been as my (sole) guest.

Do you want to try making any other wildly incorrect assertions?
You have to pay extra to take an adult guest, you don't to take a child. Why you are even arguing against this I don't know since it is a fact.
Tuesday 26 October 2010 3.38pm
"Members can take up to 6 family children free into exhibitions and Members Rooms"

"You can take in as many guests as your membership type allows: ‘Member' admits one person, ‘plus Guest' admits two people and ‘plus Guest plus Extra Card' admits four."
Tuesday 26 October 2010 4.10pm
Bungle wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Bungle wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Is my membership somehow worth less than yours, or should it convey fewer benefits than yours, because I've got a child? I'd happily take a discount on my membership if that's what you're proposing, but I suspect it isn't.
The fault in your logic is that if I wish to take along an adult guest I have to pay extra on top of my membership fee. You don't to take your child.

Wrong again. We have two member-plus-guest cards in our (two adult, one child) household. The only times I've taken BabyI to the MR, it's been as my (sole) guest.
Do you want to try making any other wildly incorrect assertions?
You have to pay extra to take an adult guest, you don't to take a child. Why you are even arguing against this I don't know since it is a fact.

Bungle, I've highlighted the relevant bit of my previous post in bold. If you take a deep breath and read it s l o w l y, then you'd (have) see(n) that I'm telling you that if I take my child to the MR, said child comes as my guest, on my member-plus-guest card.

Do you object to that?

...if you press it, they will come.
Tuesday 26 October 2010 4.28pm
Ivanhoe wrote:
Bungle wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Bungle wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Is my membership somehow worth less than yours, or should it convey fewer benefits than yours, because I've got a child? I'd happily take a discount on my membership if that's what you're proposing, but I suspect it isn't.
The fault in your logic is that if I wish to take along an adult guest I have to pay extra on top of my membership fee. You don't to take your child.

Wrong again. We have two member-plus-guest cards in our (two adult, one child) household. The only times I've taken BabyI to the MR, it's been as my (sole) guest.
Do you want to try making any other wildly incorrect assertions?
You have to pay extra to take an adult guest, you don't to take a child. Why you are even arguing against this I don't know since it is a fact.

Bungle, I've highlighted the relevant bit of my previous post in bold. If you take a deep breath and read it s l o w l y, then you'd (have) see(n) that I'm telling you that if I take my child to the MR, said child comes as my guest, on my member-plus-guest card.


Do you object to that?
The plus guest part is for an adult. Whether you take your child or not is irrelevant since you aren't paying extra for that. If anyone's entitled to a discount it's me because all I take is myself!
Tuesday 26 October 2010 4.40pm
Bungle, you're probably entitled to a discount for so many reasons. In your own mind.

It's a shame you can't find anyone to take with you. I really can't imagine who'd be crazy enough to not want the inestimable benefit of your true observations and philanthropic company.

Do feel free to ask me along as your guest. With a bit of notice, I should be able to make quite a few weekends. I'll bring my card, as well, and then you won't have to feel bad about the baby being a freeloader.

...if you press it, they will come.
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